Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > General Maintenance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 207.106.217.129
Old 01-06-2014, 03:03 PM
sglazebrook sglazebrook is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 75
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Side (Valve) Cover Plate

Does anybody know if the late model side (valve) cover plate fits on an early model block? I have an early block that I'd like to install the newer valve cover plate on so I can potentially upgrade to the PCV system easier (and in the mean time buy a new slash tube from our host).

Thanks.
__________________
Scott
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 174.94.33.109
Old 01-06-2014, 03:59 PM
67c&ccorv's Avatar
67c&ccorv 67c&ccorv is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London, ON
Posts: 1,559
Thanks: 4
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
You should maybe ask ndutton about this?

Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 172.8.28.57
Old 01-06-2014, 04:35 PM
thatch thatch is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Santa clarita, Ca.
Posts: 1,079
Thanks: 235
Thanked 257 Times in 138 Posts
sglazebrook, Based on the Universal master parts manual, it would appear that the later side cover plate will fit on an early block. Ken, in parts should be able to confirm this. Now for my real reason for answering this question.
Many of us, including N. Dutton, feel that a PCV valve is more of a "Band-Aide" rather than an "up-grade". With a correctly installed slash tube along with proper ignition timing, our A4s are running very "fume free" without the need of additional fuel metering adjustments brought on with the addition of a PVC "vaccum leak".
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 01-06-2014, 05:55 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Smile One of Our Favorite Discussions

Thd downside of the slash tube is that it dumps the oily mess (with dust) directly into the arrestor, and thence upstream of the carb's jet system thus contributing to schmutzy jets which we are always talking about. Gosh I love this subject.
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 01-06-2014, 08:16 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Quote:
You should maybe ask ndutton about this?
If you dare . . .
I have no idea about sideplate interchange, previous advice to ask Ken in parts is the way to go. Now, for the sideshow:
Quote:
so I can potentially upgrade to the PCV system easier
Upgrade?? Hardly. There is no performance or economy advantage. The only reason for adding a PCV system is to manage excessive blowby from a worn engine that overwhelms the original design slash tube. Expect to inherit tuning difficulties when you make the change.
Quote:
The downside of the slash tube is that it dumps the oily mess (with dust) directly into the arrestor, and thence upstream of the carb's jet system thus contributing to schmutzy jets which we are always talking about
Hmmm. My arrestor isn't oily or messy, my jet isn't schmutzy nor do I ever talk about it and I have a slash tube. How can this be??

I'll tell you how. My engine isn't worn (yet) to the point my blowby is excessive and when it wears to that point I'll rebuild it. Oily arrestors and schmutzy jets are not . . . wait for it . . . . ubiquitous with slash tubes.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 108.212.226.13
Old 01-07-2014, 09:51 AM
hcrisp's Avatar
hcrisp hcrisp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Traverse City, MI
Posts: 307
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Words

You do love that word, Neil.
H
__________________

S/V Swimmer
Bristol 27
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 108.212.226.13
Old 01-07-2014, 09:52 AM
hcrisp's Avatar
hcrisp hcrisp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Traverse City, MI
Posts: 307
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Words

That is not a complaint.
H
__________________

S/V Swimmer
Bristol 27
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 01-07-2014, 09:55 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
I came that close - - - that close - - - to winning a set of A-4 spark plugs for that word. Lost out to eschew. Only two syllables with wimpy consonant sounds. It changed my life.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 01-07-2014, 10:24 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Smile

But there is always the consolation award:

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 207.106.217.129
Old 01-07-2014, 11:26 AM
sglazebrook sglazebrook is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 75
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks all - that helps (I'm away from the boat and my manual - but have an opportunity to pick a side plate up cheap).

The immediate reason to consider this is not for the PCV valve, but that my slash tube is disintegrating and I need a new one, and the new ones sold here seem to be a much better design than the older style (larger, more firmly attached, and, of course, readily available).

Thanks again!
__________________
Scott

Last edited by sglazebrook; 01-07-2014 at 03:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 174.94.33.109
Old 01-07-2014, 04:47 PM
67c&ccorv's Avatar
67c&ccorv 67c&ccorv is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London, ON
Posts: 1,559
Thanks: 4
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sglazebrook View Post
Thanks all - that helps (I'm away from the boat and my manual - but have an opportunity to pick a side plate up cheap).

The immediate reason to consider this is not for the PCV valve, but that my slash tube is disintegrating and I need a new one, and the new ones sold here seem to be a much better design than the older style (larger, more firmly attached, and, of course, readily available).

Thanks again!

WOW - I need one of those...any idea where I can get one?



PS - if you don't want your old early model side plate I would be willing to buy it if it is in good shape?

Last edited by 67c&ccorv; 01-07-2014 at 04:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 70.166.15.66
Old 07-29-2014, 04:29 PM
sglazebrook sglazebrook is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 75
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Finally...

I finally got the time to replace the side/valve cover plate when replacing the manifold gasket (and exhaust flange and gasket and exhaust hot section and...). After having both off the engine I think the older version plate is more substantial and less prone to bending/deformation due to its shape, but the slash tube fitting (designed originally I believe for a flex tube connector to the carburetor) is smaller diameter than later slash tubes - the latter I would imagine does a better job of removing any gasses in the chamber and with the orientation of the hole on the interior side less likely to have oil splashed out of the slash tube and into the flame arrestor!

No plans for a PCV system at this time.

So, I have the old one that looks in great shape - just in need ofa little cleaning and paint.
__________________
Scott
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 07-29-2014, 05:02 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Exclamation Fwiw

I personally think the PCV system is the best of all the upgrades for the A-4. It is a simple devise that helps us all with the air we breath on this rock!!! It has virtually no downside other than those with problems tuning an A-4!! It is not a band-aide it is a smog devise that works to benefit the environments air we all breath with no downside in performance!!!!

I have hooked up more than a few on A-4's and re-hooked a couple too since the misinformation posted on this site. I know it is something not available here and that does not mean it is not good for the A-4 and our environment.

Rant over.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 07-29-2014, 09:29 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Misinformation? That stings!

Truly, my prior posts about the PCV were only a differing opinion, not an attempt to misinform. I steadfastly maintain my factory original slash tube handles the blowby on my engine very well and I have a pretty sensitive schnozz.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 07-29-2014, 10:10 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Fwiw

I did a little testing on my engine with and without PCV. I discoverd that in neutral at 1000 rpm the PCV was costing me 1 to 1.5 inches of vacuum. Not sure I like that so I have purchased a snubber from McMaster and will report back on results.
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 142.136.107.234
Old 07-30-2014, 09:29 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Hanley, a "snubber", not sure what you mean here.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 07-30-2014, 07:07 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Hanley, a "snubber", not sure what you mean here.

Dave Neptune
Snubber, a restriction fitting to modulate instrument fluctuation. I have them on my fuel pressure gauge and vacuum gauge. I have a theory that the PCV does not need the full flow of a 1/8" pipe to do it's job so I intend to drill out a .015" snubber until the PCV valve just controls the blowby with minimum vacuum "leak".
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 174.58.82.173
Old 07-30-2014, 11:40 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
I like that idea Hanley. Keep us updated.
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 142.136.107.234
Old 07-31-2014, 09:10 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Careful

Hanley, I think you'll need a bigger bleed than that as the PCV works at high manifold pressures too. When operating at these lower vacuum a larger hole is necessary to allow the flow. At higher vacuum or low pressure the valve allows very little through via an internal control. I doubt the PCV and a snubber will work well together as a PCV valve is set up for displacement and manifold load profiles via it's internal mechanism controlled by vacuum.

You would probably be better off finding one for a similar engine but of less displacement. The amounts of air that a PCV introduces is easily compensated by the carb. This is because carbs are so far off even when they're close. Look at how much better an FI engine works for economy, a carb set-up may match it is a few spots but across the board the FI is superior.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #20   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 08-02-2014, 07:38 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

Ran a test today on the PCV system which I have plumbed to the carb spacer plate via 1/8" NPT fittings. The engine ran at 1200 rpm with 15 inches of vacuum. Next I installed a snubber in the line drilled out with 3/32" bit. I saw 17 inches of vacuum at the same rpm. Of course I had to change carb settings, main jet and idle screw, to achieve the same fuel/air ratio. The engine runs smoother and achieves a lower idle without missing. I'm looking forward to sea trials on this with launch expected in about 2 weeks. The issue will be whether the now restricted PCV can handle the blowby at cruising rpm.
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 174.58.82.173
Old 08-02-2014, 07:47 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
Interesting Hanley, Why would you have a higher vacuum with a "leak"? How do you measure the air fuel ratio?
Reply With Quote
  #22   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 08-02-2014, 07:58 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
Interesting Hanley, Why would you have a higher vacuum with a "leak"? How do you measure the air fuel ratio?
The "leak", the PCV valve deprives the manifold of vacuum; thus depriving the PCV valve of some of it's flow restores vacuum to the manifold. I measure air/fuel ratio with a gauge and an O2 sensor. The O2 sensor is threaded into the end of the manifold. The gauge is just below the ammeter on the panel.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 174.58.82.173
Old 08-02-2014, 08:13 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
That is right, I remember now, that gold engine with O2 sensor. Looks good!

I am still stuck about the vacuum. In my mind, when there is a leak, the vacuum would go down, but the RPM would go up. I have to think on this.
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 08-03-2014, 11:30 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
I did a little testing on my engine with and without PCV. I discovered that in neutral at 1000 rpm the PCV was costing me 1 to 1.5 inches of vacuum.

Ran a test today on the PCV system which I have plumbed to the carb spacer plate via 1/8" NPT fittings. The engine ran at 1200 rpm with 15 inches of vacuum. Next I installed a snubber in the line drilled out with 3/32" bit. I saw 17 inches of vacuum at the same rpm. Of course I had to change carb settings, main jet and idle screw, to achieve the same fuel/air ratio. The engine runs smoother and achieves a lower idle without missing.
Ooh baby, be still my heart. SCHWEEN!!

Hanley, you may be in the unique position to perform actual comparative vacuum measurements because with your oxy sensor you can maintain a consistent fuel/air ratio. Please keep the results coming. This is great information regardless of the outcome.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 08-03-2014, 03:31 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Ooh baby, be still my heart. SCHWEEN!!

Hanley, you may be in the unique position to perform actual comparative vacuum measurements because with your oxy sensor you can maintain a consistent fuel/air ratio. Please keep the results coming. This is great information regardless of the outcome.
Actually, Ed has the same system. I'm beginning to form an hypothesis in my head to the effect that the usefulness of a PCV valve is proportional to the quantity of blowby. To put it another way, the PCV as installed from the supplier pulls more air and vacuum from an engine than necessary to handle the blowby - it is not adjustable. I suppose the next thing should be a carbon monoxide sensor to see when the PCV achieves it's desired result, and at what size orifice. Any thoughts on this?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
working toward FWC sastanley Cooling System 38 08-01-2012 06:51 PM
Water Jacket Side Plate questions NiteFly Cooling System 12 04-07-2010 09:19 AM
Replacing side plate, head gasket Kemp Dawson Cooling System 2 05-15-2008 07:37 AM
Water Jacket Side Plate Leak 1973 Ericson Cooling System 5 11-09-2005 10:43 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved