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  #1   IP: 207.200.116.131
Old 06-11-2005, 11:33 PM
Andy Andy is offline
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Unhappy Water in Engine

The atomic 4 on the Ericson 32 I crew on for Friday night beercan races has been very cranky lately and refusing to start. In the process of trying to get it started we spent quite a bit of time cranking the engine without it starting. Of course no one on the crew knew that we needed to shut off the water intake valve if the engine was going to be cranked for any period of time with out starting Of course now there is water in the engine, I noticed it when I removed the flame arrestor and saw water dripping out the end of the carb. My question for the forum is what the heck do I do now? How can I get the water out without screwing things up even worse. thanks in advance.

-Andy
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  #2   IP: 38.118.53.88
Old 06-13-2005, 04:12 PM
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Andy,

Here is an excerpt from a recent tech note we prepared for cleaning water out of an engine after it enters the engine from the exhaust system. The most important part of the whole procedure is to get to the point where you can restart the engine and warm it up, which of course begs the question of why your engine wouldn't start in the first place. I'll add a short list of things to check in this regard at the end of this message.

WHAT TO DO IF WATER IS DISCOVERED IN THE CYLINDERS (OR RUNNING OUT OF THE INTAKE THROAT OF THE CARBURETOR):

1) If water is discovered in combustion chambers, perform the following precautionary steps as soon as possible:

a. Close the raw water thru-hull valve.

b. Remove all spark plugs and squirt lots (5 or 6 squirts) of Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) in each cylinder to prevent pistons from seizing. Try to aim the MMO away from the manifold side of the engine, toward the cylinders.

c. Turn the engine over with the starter until most of the evidence of water is gone from the combustion chambers.

d. If water was seen to run out of the intake throat of the carburetor, remove the main passage plug (the plug that you would remove to remove the main jet), and allow all the fuel and water to run out of the carburetor.

2) Dry (or replace) the spark plugs, and try to start the engine. If the engine starts, open the raw water through-hull.

3) If the engine starts and runs satisfactorily, check for water in the crankcase. If water is present, change the oil at least three times. Run the engine just long enough between changes to mix up the water and oil to maximize the amount of water that comes out with each oil change.

QUICK CHECKS FOR NON-STARTING ENGINES:

1) Close raw water through hull as soon as it is determined that the engine is not starting within the normal time.

2) Be sure the choke is closed completely. If an engine chronically starts hard, but then runs OK after it starts, the hard starting is almost certainly caused by the choke not closing completely.

3) Remove the flame arrestor and check for the presence of raw fuel. If the choke is closed completely, there should be raw fuel puddled in the bottom of the intake throat within 15 to 20 seconds of cranking (3 or 4 five-second attempts). If the carburetor intake throat is "bone dry", the reason for the non-starting is either a problem in the fuel supply that prevents the fuel from getting to the carburetor or some problem within the carburetor that prevents the fuel from getting through the carburetor (most likely a blocked main jet).

4) Remove the secondary lead from the center of the distributor cap and hold it approximately 1/4" from the cylinder head while someone cranks the starter. You should see a good arc between the end of the coil lead and the head that can be stretched to 1/2" or even 3/4". If you see no spark, the reason for non-starting is clearly within the ignition system, most likely a breakdown within the primary ignition circuit.

5) With all spark plugs removed, hold your thumb over each spark plug hole sequentially to check compression, as someone cranks the engine for a second or two with the starter. An Atomic 4 will usually start if any two
cylinders have normal compression as indicated below.

a. Compression sufficient to force past your thumb no matter how hard you press it against the plug hole would confirm normal compression of approximately 85 psi or above.

b. If you can hold your thumb against the compression, but not easily, a compression value of approximately 40 to 50 psi would be indicated, and starting could be problematic.

c. If you feel virtually no compression on any cylinder, the problem is likely a stuck valve.

Best regards,

Don
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  #3   IP: 207.200.116.74
Old 06-14-2005, 11:31 AM
Andy Andy is offline
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Thanks for the reply. As it turns out we have bigger problems. I managed to get the water out of the engine, it turned out to be not very much but of course the engine still wouldn't start. After a lot of monkeying around with the usual obvious stuff I went ahead and did a compression test and 1 & 2 looked good at 120-130 but 3 & 4 read zero :-( I haven't taken the head off yet but I have a theory that the head gasket is blown. It would seem unusual to have stuck valves in 2 cylinders simultaneously. I suppose I won't know till i dig into it deeper but does this make sense to ya'all?


-Andy
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  #4   IP: 38.118.53.88
Old 06-14-2005, 09:37 PM
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Andy,

It's true that you won't know for sure until you get the head off. Even if it turns out that one of the valves is stuck in each of the back cylinders, you can do a much better job of freeing the valves with the head off.

Don
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  #5   IP: 172.195.95.109
Old 06-24-2005, 11:09 AM
Andy Andy is offline
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Good news and now what

Ok, the good news is I removed the head, found stuck intake valves on cyl 3 and 4, freed the valves, put everything back together and now the engine runs again! I am not sure why they stuck in the first place and I am worried that they could stick again. It could be that they were stuck all along and that was the original reason it wouldn't start or it could be that the original problem was either the points or carb (both a pit of corosion) and I caused them to stick when water got in the engine from excessive cranking with the water intake open. The valves were very easy to free, I squirted some penetrating oil on the stem and one light tap with a mallet was all it took, they popped right into place. Does anyone have any suggestion on how to keep the valves from sticking again, at least until the end of summer when there will be more time for proper repairs?

-Andy
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  #6   IP: 38.118.55.115
Old 06-27-2005, 10:15 AM
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Andy,

Congratulations on what appears to be a successful operation!

Your engine will have a good chance of working out of the sticky valve syndrome permanently with continued use of Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO). I recommend doubling the recommended dosage on the can (4 ounces per 10 gallons) to at least 8 to 10 ounces per 10 gallons of fuel. I'd also give the engine a few MMO treatments by applying 5 or 6 squirts of MMO into each cylinder (maybe just before taking the boat out for the next three times).

Regards,

Don
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  #7   IP: 68.5.151.237
Old 04-03-2006, 09:05 PM
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Where is it

Where is the raw water intake valve located on a cat 27 with an A4???
What I thought was the valve I just found out is the grease cup? ooops
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  #8   IP: 64.230.38.59
Old 04-03-2006, 09:41 PM
Simon Simon is offline
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Water in the Engine

The grease cup that you located is on the water pump. If you look immediately aft of the grease cup which is located on the side of the water pump you should be able to locate a hose that will lead you to a thruhull fitting somewhere in the area of the bilge. If installed properly, the raw water hose intake will be fitted to either a ball valve or a gate valve. Good Luck.
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A4 early :cool:
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  #9   IP: 75.68.166.15
Old 07-06-2007, 12:21 PM
manfredhilker manfredhilker is offline
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A LOT of Water in the engine

I changed several items over the winter: rebuilt the carburator, exchanged a gate valve ( Raw water in) for ball valve, then had the impeller exchanged by my shipyard before launch, they couldn't get the engine to start, so I got a brand new Carburator.
The 4th had no wind, so we motored 2 x 50 minutes or so, the A4 purrs along like a kitten, boat is clean when we leave it on the 5th. Today (7th) I check my bilge and its filled with water/oil ! I can't figure out where the stuff is coming from, but just in case pump the oil and get 2 gallons (!) = 4 quarts of water (almost drinking quality) out of the engine, then a bit more oil/water sludge. i poured in the two quarts of oil I had on board and pumped those through.
Has anybody any idea what is going on? Engine started fine and ran perfectly ( after the shipyard had problems and fixed - i hope- them). Is there a way to install the impeller that wrongly? Is my new valve sucking in more water than the old (even so..)? This engine has motored for days in prior seasons without a squeek, and nothing has changed ( as I can tell) in the exhaust system, still don't have a flap over the end pipe in the transom....
As the second step ( after cleanup) I will just buy more oil and pump it through the engine in order to get the water out and then I'll start her with the water intake closed. Please let me know if you agree with me or have some other good tips on hand.
Thanks!
Manfred
Catalina 30/ A4
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  #10   IP: 38.118.52.41
Old 07-09-2007, 06:58 PM
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Manfred,

I'm attaching a short tech note on Catalina 30 water issues which may help you although your symptoms do not quite fit the standard Catalina 30 water entering from the exhaust syndrome.

The only way water can get from the exhaust to the oil pan is through the combustion chambers which should prevent your engine from running. If, after cleaning things up and keeping the through-hull closed whenever the engine is not running, the engine continues to run well while water continues to enter the crankcase, we'll have to consider a crack somewhere in the cooling jacket in the block.

Don
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File Type: pdf Catalina exhaust issues.pdf (9.9 KB, 900 views)
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  #11   IP: 75.68.166.15
Old 08-12-2007, 01:52 PM
manfredhilker manfredhilker is offline
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Thanks for the hints Don. After 7 or 8 oil exchanges the oil now looks less milky and the oil pressure is built back up to almost 40 psi. I keep the raw water intake now closed when the engine is not in use. She's starting very hard, but when she does just runs fine.
Thanks again!
Manfred
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  #12   IP: 75.0.239.98
Old 01-28-2008, 11:56 PM
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more water in carb

Don I just went thru the water in the carb scenario with my cat30. Man is that frustrating!! I need to purchase the gasket between the manifold and the carb but I dont see it listed in the catalog. can that be bought without the whole service kit?
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  #13   IP: 204.145.183.5
Old 01-29-2008, 09:40 AM
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Gilbert,

The carburetor flange gasket is listed in the gasket section of the catalog with a product number of GASK_10_149.

Just search the online store using the keword "149" (without the quotes).

Don
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