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  #1   IP: 65.35.185.181
Old 11-19-2012, 06:46 PM
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Smoking Alternator

Just when I start thinking "I wonder when I should start to learn about my electrical system" my trusty A4 has answered. So- small amount of smoke, "electrical" smell and hot alternator. This has happened the past three times I've been out, but not persistent and nothing else seems to be negatively influenced. Still starts, runs, all other electrical devices work fine. Any help with this issue would be appreciated. I have a digital multimeter and rudimentary understanding of electricity but no real knowledge of A4 specific stuff. the only thing that has changed in the past six months is I have been having battery issues. After an over aggressive mmo treatment I tried repeatedly starting and I think the plugs got wet. Shut water intake and tried and tried draining my batteries in the process. So I have plugged into to shore power a few times to top off the batteries, as they didn't seem to be holding enough charge to start to motor. I have two 75 amp hour batteries. The alternator seems to be original and my boat and A4 are 1970 (Ericson 29)
Again longwinded, but any advice on how to address this is greatly appreciated. Thanks
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:09 PM
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When you say "Hot Alternator"... is it because of engine temps or is it really hot to the touch?
(Meaning hot like an electrical shorting?)
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:05 PM
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Jerry
Not relative to engine temp. It happened today after I started the engine to warm it up. I could smell that burning electrical smell and touched the alternator- really hot. The engine was barely warmed up. I know - this seems like something that I need to figure out soon.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:38 PM
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My best guess

June, your alternator is done, start shopping for a replacement, batteries too. The nagging question is "What happened?" Assuming physical damage is not evident (nothing mentioned in your original post) I think it went something like this:
  1. Hard starting episode(s) drained the batteries
  2. Batteries either not deep cycle or old/sulfated/specific gravity out of spec enough that they are no longer capable of performing after recharging so essentially they're still dead
  3. Engine starts with the boost of the charger but while running the regulator senses a severely depleted battery bank and demands full alternator output
  4. Running at low RPM does not provide enough fan cooling to keep up with internal alternator heat at full alternator output. Alternator speed and therefore pulley fan speed is limited by a 1:1 accessory drive and roughly 1.75:1 drive to alternator pulley ratio.
  5. We've learned from Lewco Electric in Newport Beach, CA that at internal alternator temps around 200°F the wire insulation on the internal windings begins to deteriorate (the smell).
  6. The longer it runs, the hotter it gets, the more winding deterioration occurs (the smoke). It's a death spiral.
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Last edited by ndutton; 11-23-2019 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:53 PM
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Neil,
That's sounds about exactly right. Have already started looking for new batteries. Are there used alternators out there or does it make more sense to get a new one? Is a regulator inside the alternator or a separate unit? Also is it foolish/ dangerous to use it at all before it gets fixed, or does it just hasten the death spiral of the components in question. Thanks for the reply- just what I was looking for ( well sort of )
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:07 PM
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Yeah, sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

I have no problem with used alternators provided they're checked out by a pro BEFORE committing. Internal condition is everything and if there is evidence of previous overheating you could be in the same fix. Be sure whatever you buy it's ignition protected, a Coast Guard requirement intended for your safety. Stay away from the auto parts boutique and unless you know exactly what you're looking at, ebay too.

Regulation varies. Our original Motorola alternators are externally regulated although the reg is mounted on the back of the alternator. My Delco is internally regulated and self exciting (allright, enough with the giggles).

I would not use the engine until this is resolved. It's an ankle bone connected to the leg bone thing. Having the electrics out of whack can adversely affect other components. It's bad enough now, let's not risk making it worse.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:32 PM
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Thanks again Neil. I looked into alternator repair, wondering if this is possible after a few episodes of frying. Will call the shop tomorrow to find out or seek out replacement. Again great advice. How awesome is this website?
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:35 PM
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Agree, awesome site. After trying out a few other boat related forums I've cast them off for a variety of reasons, prefer to spend time here. They just don't measure up. Admin Bill and you guys have ruined me for all others.

Back to your smelly alternator (sorry), I figure its repair will be much like rewinding a motor and the cost of repair usually exceeds replacement. Those are the simple economics of the matter.

Since you'll likely be replacing there's a wide world of choices out there. The basic rule of thumb is to size your alternator (in amps) at 1/4 of your total battery capacity.

A good place to start shopping is right here.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junebug View Post
... Also is it foolish/ dangerous to use it at all before it gets fixed, or does it just hasten the death spiral of the components in question. ...
The way I see it, the best case is the alternator dies, leaving you stranded with a dead battery and in need of an expensive tow.

The worst case is the insulation fails, the generator output shorts out, setting the insulation and alternator on fire, and the boat burns to the waterline.

If it were me, I wouldn't use it until it's replaced!
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:03 PM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junebug View Post
Just when I start thinking "I wonder when I should start to learn about my electrical system" my trusty A4 has answered. So- small amount of smoke, "electrical" smell and hot alternator. This has happened the past three times I've been out, but not persistent and nothing else seems to be negatively influenced. Still starts, runs, all other electrical devices work fine. Any help with this issue would be appreciated. I have a digital multimeter and rudimentary understanding of electricity but no real knowledge of A4 specific stuff. the only thing that has changed in the past six months is I have been having battery issues. After an over aggressive mmo treatment I tried repeatedly starting and I think the plugs got wet. Shut water intake and tried and tried draining my batteries in the process. So I have plugged into to shore power a few times to top off the batteries, as they didn't seem to be holding enough charge to start to motor. I have two 75 amp hour batteries. The alternator seems to be original and my boat and A4 are 1970 (Ericson 29)
Again longwinded, but any advice on how to address this is greatly appreciated. Thanks
Since you have a multimeter, why not test alternator output voltage? If Neil's theory is right, the output will be at max.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:01 PM
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Smoking alternator

Moyer sells a 120 amp and a 55 amp alternators for the A4: http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...rebuilder.html

If your alternator was the original it was a 35 amp Motorola alternator, like the one attached to my engine. The formula given that the alternator output in amps should be about 1/4 of the battery bank amperage means that my 35 amp alt would be fine for charging a battery bank of 140 amps. I have 2 group 31 batts, each about 120 amps, or a total of 240 amps, so my alternator is really quite small (in terms of amperage output) for my battery bank. I would be better served by the 55 amp alternator; it is likely the same is true for your boat's battery bank. Installing a more appropriately sized alternator should mean that it will not have to work so hard to keep your batteries charged up.

I just wonder what happened to your alt. that made it heat up as in Neils hypothesized failure scenario. I wonder if the shaft bearings in the alt. have failed of if there is/are other explanations as to why it went to 'fry'. I'm sure that these fellows are correct that if the insulation on the wire windings inside the alt. are compromised that it is then 'toast', and not worth trying to fix.

The only alt. failure I have witnessed first hand was on a friends boat where we accidentally hooked up the battery bank with reverse polarity. I was looking right at the engine when the circuit connected and watched a small wisp of smoke come out of the alternator. We fixed the polarity of the cables but the damage had been done and the alt. was no longer working as the diodes in it (that convert from AC to DC current) had fried. In this case the wire windings were fine and we took the alt. to a alt./starter motor repair shop in Annapolis and they fixed it up like new (for about $200, IIRC). For that kind of money you could just buy a new 55 amp alt. from Moyer and be done with it.

Depending on what state you live in there may be a 'core' charge for your old alternator; sort of like deposit on a soda bottle but more money ($5 - $20). You may be able to get the core charge back if you take your old alt to a place that sells new ones and turn it in to them. Call Ken at MMI parts as they may also take your old alt and redeem the core charge.

You get great advice from the other guys here who really know their stuff. I'm just here to nibble at the crumbs while trying to learn something.
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Last edited by CalebD; 11-20-2012 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
If Neil's theory is right, the output will be at max.
My theory was max amperage combined with insufficient cooling over a lengthy period causing the initial deterioration and not necessarily overvoltage. After it degenerated into a smoke episode all bets are off regarding multimeter readings. By now it might be like measuring a charcoal briquette.

Thanks to all for realizing it was a theory, hypothesis, WAG, shot in the dark.
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Old 11-21-2012, 06:26 PM
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Thanks again for all replies. Should be up and running by Saturday. Had the alternator off the boat, to the shop and replacement in hand all by 8 am. They had a redone motorola 37 amp that was nearly an exact match- in stock. For $150 it seemed like a better alternative than a GM one they also said would work for $80. I wasn't sure if the other one was ignition protected and am pretty sure the new one is- he said it came from an atomic 4. The weren't as definitive as I wanted them to be about the alternator having ignition protection so I tried to play it as safe as I could. New batteries Friday, hopefully back in the gulf Saturday. I'm getting myself the Nigel Calder marine electronics "bible" for my 35th b'day. I'll tear out the part about diesel engines. In the spirit of the upcoming feast, much gratitude to the inhabitants of Afouria.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:11 PM
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Although I have never done it nor have I ever seen it done, I hear that if you turn off your battery switch with the engine running it will somehow fry your alternator. Don't know if this is relevant or not but will doing this fry your alternator?

DVD
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:32 PM
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Also in looking at the the moyer alternators why wouldn't you just buy the high output alternator rather than the 55 amp. There doesn't appear to be that much of a price difference. Don't mean to be highjacking the thread but I think this information would be helpful.

DVD
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvd View Post
...I hear that if you turn off your battery switch with the engine running it will somehow fry your alternator. Don't know if this is relevant or not but will doing this fry your alternator?
Uhhhhh... yes!
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junebug View Post
I'm getting myself the Nigel Calder marine electronics "bible" for my 35th b'day.
Oh Lordy, I feel old.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:29 PM
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Oh Lordy, I feel old.
Well, We ARE old.
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