Motor out of the boat whats next??

[urchin]

Ok so one thing lead to another last week and next thing I knew the motor is out of the boat, I removed the head and visually inspected the valves and cylinders everything looked ok to my untrained eye.

I dropped it off at a local marine machine shop for them to look over and let me know what they think, after having the motor for 5 days he tells me it needs to be torn all the way down and have the cylinders honed I ask how much it will cost he tells me lots and wont give me any estimate besides that he charges $100 an hour.

So the motor is back sitting in a garage and I am contemplating my next step as the sailing season is ticking by any thoughts are welcome or what I should be looking for to help make my decision.

[romantic comedy]

You dont give us much to go on. What was the reason you took it out?
What was the compression? Ate there other problems?

You called your eye untrained, so I guess you dont have much mechanic experience?

Would you feel confident taking it apart? Do you have the Moyer Manual?

If you want to do a rebulid, then you can take it apart and have it measured. Remember to keep everything organized: what piston came from which hole, what valve, etc....

Where are you located? Maybe there is an atomic four mechanic near you? someone might know.

[urchin]

I was just reading over the post and knew that was coming.

Motor came out of the boat for lots of small reasons not any one problem, primarily I needed the accesses for other work on the boat, the engine mounts were no longer bolted to the engine bed (nuts vibrated lose over the years?) and the motor leaks oil from the the rear seal.

Compression was around 65, 80, 80, 90.

I have a fair amount of mechanic experience from basic automotive maintenance to doing a few engine swaps and head gaskets on vehicles over the years, I have the moyer manual and I am extremely confident in taking it apart but we will see about putting it back together.

I am located in the Puget sound area and dont have much confidence in mechanics

[13jeff13]

Originally Posted by urchin

I was just reading over the post and knew that was coming.

Motor came out of the boat for lots of small reasons not any one problem, primarily I needed the accesses for other work on the boat, the engine mounts were no longer bolted to the engine bed (nuts vibrated lose over the years?) and the motor leaks oil from the the rear seal.

Compression was around 65, 80, 80, 90.

I have a fair amount of mechanic experience from basic automotive maintenance to doing a few engine swaps and head gaskets on vehicles over the years, I have the moyer manual and I am extremely confident in taking it apart but we will see about putting it back together.

I am located in the Puget sound area and dont have much confidence in mechanics

It may look Daunting, but if you have the Manual and follow it to the T.. You will be Successful. Follow the threads on Here and you will see it is a Great Little Motor to work on for the shade tree mechanic.

YIKES,, It's almost like the Movie Ground Hog Day,, ha-hah,, A re-accoring theme.

Mine was Much Worse,, and View My Video from tonight,,, if I get it posted,, haha. Mine came back from the Half Swamped Depths,, Over a Year and a Half Rebuild, 6 Month Lay off, Tornado Damage to my home and 5 Rental Houses.. To A Joyous Success. But Mine Too Started off just as yours, and she is Now My Pride and Joy, so Have Faith, ,in the Motor, The Forum, MMI, and Yourself.. YOU CAN DO IT... !


Jeff

[lat 64]

Clean it up, put a new head gasket on it, and go Sailing! Life is short.
If you want to do the whole sheebang rebuild, then do it late this fall. That puppy looks like it will make it 'til then. You can test run right there in the garage too!
I'm sure it's tired, but the $2,000-$3,000 rebuild can wait can't it?

Give us more history of how the po ol' thing ran before you pulled it.
Maybe it just needs love.

Russ

[Mo]

Hi Urchin.

Just looking at the tops of the cylinders it does look like you had oil by-passing your rings and getting into the combustion chambers. Your engine looks tired.

I would step back and take a breath. Once you start a project like this you may find that you run into small things that need replacing and it all adds up to time and money. It's up to you and how quick you want it to be back in the boat. No doubt in my mind you could rebuild it.

You could also send it to an engine shop and they could take it down, measure, hone, rings, check crank and bearings etc. They could check everything much easier because that's what they do, day in day out. They easily identify worn items such as lifters, seat the valves etc. If there are small flaws they have the gear to take care of it as they move forward.

I would think the mechanic would do the same job as you. An engine shop has a few more toys at their disposal to check and verify everything in a shorter period of time.

[Sony2000]

I'm with lat 64. You can do another 10 years.
1. Clean up the head section. Retorque head after a few hours or running.
2. Clean rust out from behind the water jacket cover.
3. Use hotter, longer plugs to keep the carbon down.
4. Be more religous with MMO and the compression will rise.
5. Paint it.
Then enjoy the rest of the summer.

[joe_db]

What is your budget for this?
(mine is always stuck on low )
I would put your engine back together and give it a good MMO treatment and try and see if you can make to to fall and then do a rebuild.

Or scavenge Craigslist. it took me about 3 months, but I got a great engine for $1500

[urchin]

Thanks for the replies. I hear what lat 64 is saying as the sailing season is well under way (though summer is more motoring season then sailing around here) and I am sitting at the dock.

Reliability is my question with new fuel system from tank forward and ignition all renewed is this thing going to give up the ghost on me when out?

[Sony2000]

Compression is OK on 3 cylinders except #1 needs some care. Reseat the valves of #1 with compound, but some sanding of the mating surfaces with the valves still in place, may make them like the others. The engine is showing a lot of carbon. Clean it off and put the engine on a MMO diet to clean the rings. With your experience going any further might be opening a can of worms. Doing a small "top overhaul" is what is appropriate for your knowledge, your budget and your engine. Plus this is a side issue, compared to what you set out to do!

[lat 64]

Some guys are willing to put an outboard on for the duration of the rebuild.(some are not) This will get you away from the docks for a sail.
My brother lives on Bainbridge Is., and he just sails away from the dock at Port Madison Y.C.
There were a couple of guys on this forum this spring that lived in Seattle somewhere. Perhaps if they are still active, they can recommend a good shop.

Right now you are dealing with us as philosophers. When you decide which way to go, we will be more detailed about the how-to stuff.
Like Mo said, the cylinders look glazed and the rings may be passing oil, but many on this forum have taken measures to "restore" some life a bit to put off a major rebuild.

The reliability will come from the steps you are taking already. A little smoke past the rings will not shut down a motor, but one tiny spec can clog the carb. My engine is fine inside, but I'm always fighting tune-up or water issues, and that is where you will have reliability problems.

Not saying you will have trouble-free motoring either, just less so with your improvements.
Again, how was it running before you pulled it?

Russ

[Mark Millbauer]

Urchin,
I live in Seattle/Tacoma area and my be able to provide local help if you like. have a fair amount of experience with engine rebuilds. Feel free to contact me if you like.

mark
sail_masterson@yahoo.com

[urchin]

Thoughts on doing a short-block exchange through Moyer, price seems reasonable, would I really save much money by rebuilding my block?

Besides cost any advantages, disadvantages to the Moyer block?

[lat 64]

It's hard for me to think in terms of others that have money. I'm poor and am unfortunate to have experience rebuidling engines. I spent $1200 to do a ring-job style overhaul and as many hours as would have paid for a Moyer shortblock.

I get most of my a-4 data from Moyers, and that is itself enough for me to recommend them.
If you have the dosh, and no time it's always good to go that way.
I still think your engine is not that bad, but that is just a hunch. It must be checked first.
I guess that is really a question for your banker or wife/admiral.

Good luck either way,
Russ

[urchin]

So I tore the motor down over the weekend and dropped the block along with all neccesary parts off at the machine shop to be cleaned and checked. Is there anything that I should make sure that the shop checks besides the obvios wear parts? Is there any modfications that should be considered at this point?

[lat 64]

Did you catalog and keep the parts in order? Did you take lots of pictures?
please take each step along the way slowly and carefully. You must remember there are no stupid questions among the good guys here. Stop and post even the little steps if your not sure of your work.

Mods: yes,

The Kaminski mod; a hole drilled in the reversing gear case to make future access for replacing a hard-to-get-to rod.
http://www.moyermarine.com/kaminsky.htm

A mod to drill extra holes for the adjusting ring set screw in the reverse gear.
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6402

An oil hole mod to the accessory drive for better lubrication.
http://www.moyermarine.com/access_repair.htm
Many more here too:
http://www.moyermarine.com/tech.htm

r

[urchin]

I heard back from the machine shop today here is what he said

Cylinders are within the tolerances listed in the service and overhaul manual, however the machinist says it is right on the border line and he would recommend boring
Valve guides need to be replaced
Grind the valve seats
Needs new main & Rod bearings
Resurface the head & block
The crank and camshaft are good
I think that was about it


What are your guys thoughts on oversizing the cylinders I am thinking that if they are within the tolerances Don suggests that they should be ok and save my self the money, but then I am already this far what is another few hundred bucks?

[Loki9]

If you bore it, you'll need new oversized pistons.

If you don't bore it, you'll likely have a little lower compression.

I faced the same decision last year and opted not to bore it, with no regrets.

The rest of the list is standard.

[lat 64]

Specs are specs.
In my engine rebuild I too had borderline piston wear. That means when I put in new rings (properly) and had a machinist hone the cylinders with a rigid hone(recommended), I got an engine that runs fine and does not smoke at all. Never smoked at first startup and still runs very clean.
If you find the wear over specs, then you rebore and replace some very pricey pistons, but if it is spec, then just new rings.

Another thing to consider is: are the pistons worn too. If they are, then that makes an additional clearance. If the pistons are worn much(out of spec), then, yep, it may be time to go with new pistons and a rebore.

A good machinist will have you order the new pistons first so he can fit them when the rebore is done. They have slight differences and each will be fitted and numbered at the time of the job.

Don't be alarmed if he doesn't explain this though.

Ps. Don't drop the new pistons. Please.

[lat 64]

just a thought; mechanics tend to fix what an engine needs to get back in service(in spec).
Machinists tend to want to make a new engine.

Both approaches are acceptable. You just have to figure out what sort you are yourself.

Good luck with that.

Russ, former machinist, now mechanic

[urchin]

I picked up the motor from the machine shop today everything looks good except for the little fact that he dropped one of the wrist pin clips and can’t find it so the motor won’t be going back together this weekend (unless I can find them locally) should I replace all 8 or just get a replacement for the one the machinist lost?

While I wait for the wrist pin clips I was going to get everything painted up, has any one used the POR 15 products on their motors? I have used them on many things in the past with great results and was thinking of trying it on my motor.