motor ran fine -- now won't start -- no fuel flow

[keithems]

rehabbing an old c&c30 -- looks like it did not sail for several yrs -- replacement motor ran fine -- ran fuel thru tank and drained it till it was clear -- added inline filter -- motor was running fine....until.....started the other nite, ran well about 5 seconds -- then died and nothing! -- thought may have run dry, so added 2 gal premium -- nothing -- so: as of now:

--priming lever does not move
--inline filter is totally dry, as is fuel line
--sediment bowl had junk in it--emptied it; have a graco 3 micron filter --next step may be to install and use that

questions:

1. what is more likely--restriction in fuel tank pickup tube or shot mechanical fuel pump [have another in good shape]?

2. how dangerous is it to run at least to and from the slip using an outboard fuel tank? [i know the fuel tank probably needs cleaning, but i'd like to sail a little this summer and had hoped to limp thru till the boat's out of the water in the fall, when i will pull and clean the tank if necessary]

3. do the liquid fuel tank cleaners do any good?

4. will the graco filter [similar to the racor, but with 3 micron filtering] allow me to limp thru the summer with the dirty tank, assuming i change the element every few weeks?

5.do i have to clean / overhaul the carburetor now?

also -- i noticed that for some reason there is no gasket where the carb attaches to manifold -- didn't seem to matter -- do i need to install one? [already ordered it, along with a carb rebuild kit]

thanks in advance -- the motor had been running so well, and i'm so wanting to be sailing.....

[Marian Claire]

Fuel flow

You can check the fuel pick up by blowing air back to the tank. It should flow freely. I have an electric fuel pump so am no help on the pump.. After many half measures I finally pulled my tank to clean it and was amazed at the junk. Dan

[JackConnick]

You can check the fuel pick up by blowing air back to the tank. It should flow freely. I have an electric fuel pump so am no help on the pump.. After many half measures I finally pulled my tank to clean it and was amazed at the junk. Dan

Excellent tip Dan!

Jack

[MikeB.330]

If the priming lever is jammed and does not move at all, that sound like a failed fuel pump. Don sells a nice rebuild kit as well as new stainless fuel bowls. On the other hand if if turns out to be the pump I do have a "like new" MMI fuel pump. Look in the for sale forum.

Mike

[keithems]

thx -- i actually have another fuel pump from the orig. engine -- seems to be in good shape -- so tonite i took off the current fuel pump -- not very difficult -- used a "wobbly" [ask me] -- and then it seemed to pump fine -- primer lever worked, etc. -- so i reinstalled it [u see, i did work in corrections, for a time, including attica -- so i'm always looking to give the original another chance --] but -- once reinstalled -- primer was frozen again, and motor would not start - though there was fuel this time in the sediment bowl and carb drain plug -- so -- what's next? --

[keithems]

ok -- the saga continues -- i followed everyone's suggestions and with don's help i did the troubleshooting -- found a disconnected neg. coil-distributor wire, changed the coil, pts., and condenser, reset the points, reset timing, cleaned the carb, installed a groco 4 micron fuel filter, and gotter going. motor still wanted choke and rich carb setting even when warm, and i noticed some black crud when i drained the filter and fuel pump -- so i replaced the rubber hose part of my fuel line. THEN -- when shutting down, i decided to run out the gas from the tank -- so i closed the fuel valve at the tank till she quit [decided that would be a safer way to leave the boat for a while] --

well -- as expected when u violate the d.f.w.i. rule -- she has refused to start ever since.

troubleshooting again, i knew i had left the ignition switch on by mistake for 20 minutes or so after that shutdown, so i found and replaced the burnt part of the ignition-coil + lead. i also had no fuel flow, so i blew back into the tank and cleaned things, etc., etc. until it poured out of the fuel pump - carb connecting tube [per ken's suggestion]. yesterday i rebuilt and reinstalled the carb -- but still -- nothing!

i do have fuel flow to the carb, but after cranking with choke closed and flame arrestor off, i'm not seeing any fuel in the choke throat -- although if i pull the bowl drain under the carb, fuel drains out....

i know i still need to troubleshoot the ignition again [today] -- but with no fuel in the carb throat, i doubt it will start....

so HELP!!! --

1. -- is there a way to troubleshoot the carb itself? i could have reassembled it improperly, but i'd sure like to toubleshoot it first before i decide that...

2. -- am i doing the carb throat test properly? do you have to reattach the flame arrestor before cranking to give enough suction?

3. -- which items in the carb have to get gaskets or washers?

4. -- i managed to get that little idle jet out with an easy out [thank you, ken] -- don't think i hurt the carb body itself and i replaced it with a new one -- but could that be the problem?

5. -- i didn't use sealant on any of the new carb gaskets -- and hadn't before -- is that essential?

6. -- do all the fuel line connections require the teflon tape?

7. -- what else can i do besides cut a nice big hole in the motor compartment, wave bye bye to a-4, and figure out a way to install the trusty johnson 9.9 from my c&c 25? [ah -- the simple days of yore!]

don and ken have been wonderful, but unfortunately i need more ideas -- anything else i can do?

[Don Moyer]

I think you may be trying to shoot a gnat with a shotgun.

Reading through your considerable list of troubleshooting and maintenance
actions, the fact that no fuel appears in the intake throat of your
carburetor after cranking with the choke fully closed (while your carburetor
bowl is presumably full of fuel) stands out as clear evidence that the main
jet is clogged. You do not have to disassemble the whole carburetor again;
simply remove the main passage plug and remove the jet for inspection and
cleaning.

NOTE: In a recent episode where fuel was not being sucked through the main
jet, it turned out that the person had forgotten to install the scavenge
tube (including the little 90 degree fitting) which left a large vacuum leak
in the manifold. You can check for a large vacuum leak by holding your hand
over the intake throat while cranking the engine for a second or two. You
should feel considerable suction on the palm of your hand, and if the main
jet is open, fuel will be drawn through the main jet in such quantity that
the palm of your hand will become damp with fuel. If you're having a really
good day, this trick will sometimes draw a minor restriction through the
main jet and cure the problem.

Don

[keithems]

In hindsight Don was definitely right -- and he’s the expert -- not me!

There was plenty of fuel – I just didn’t see it!

The bottom line is a-4 is running fine! I'm so relieved!

Here's what happened--
I knew that my motor had never run right [needed choke when warm, etc.] and the fuel line had been clogged and needed to be blown out several times -- so since cleaning / rebuilding the carb was inevitable anyway, I figured why not just do it now? Once I did, I checked for fuel.... undoing the bottom drain plug on the carb showed fuel there, and I could prime it and pump more out [pretty clean, also] –-- so I tried cranking with the choke closed and then looking for fuel in the throat as Don suggested – however, at the time, the throat still looked dry. In hindsight, I must have not cranked the starter nearly long enough to see carb fuel [15-20 seconds, as recommended by Don] – because -- working alone -- and thinking I had more burnt wires, shorts, especially since this episode all began with my running the motor dry and leaving the ignition switch on for another 20 minutes or so by mistake – made me really squeamish bout the possibility of fuel coming out the choke throat while I was cranking from the cockpit –

Since it was getting dark, I decided to sleep on it [the problem, not the carb.] Reflecting, I knew having both fuel and ignition problems to start was making things all the more confusing....and while I didn’t really know if I had rebuilt & reconnected the carb properly, I was quite sure I likely still had an ignition problem -- so the next day I decided to confirm that first -- figuring I’d have to fix it regardless –

I figured the easiest way for a newbie like me to see if it's a fuel or ignition problem [knowing I have good compression] was to give it a shot of starting fluid and crank it -- if it coughed, then the problem was fuel -- and if no cough, then no spark = ignition problem.

So -- no cough

My test lite showed coil + side had power -- so I opened distributor and saw the neg. lead from the coil was burned [turns out that &*&*(%^ wire has been my nemesis now in my 3 no start episodes], and points did not look good -- so I pulled the dist., changed points & condenser, retaped and reinstalled the neg. coil lead [no replacement with the right bracket available], installed a new coil [figured for the $17 it cost me locally installing new was lots easier than testing the old ones], & reinstalled the distributor.

I shot the ether in again – still no cough!

I looked at the distributor and pts while I hand rotated the engine -- no little sparks at the points.

I was really getting frantic – but I had one more set of points and condenser -- so I pulled the distributor [again], changed points and condenser -- and made a new negative coil lead with some 10 ga. I had around -- reinstalled it all -- hand cranked while watching points and -- saw the little sparks!!

Very excited now -- shot some either in again -- cranked her -- and she fired right up!

For all I know, the only real problem may have been that the &^&^% little coil neg. lead wire had burned and the points and condenser were shot -- but if u think I’m gonna test or reinstall the other points or the old coil.......I’ve had enuf fun for a while -- can I go sailing now? Please????

The motor is purring nicely now – ran it for an hour last nite -- definitely did need the carb rebuild and fuel system work, so I don't regret that -- and apparently I must have gotten the carb back together ok – the old Universal parts manual with the exploded diagram was very helpful in this regard – as were Don and Ken [parts department]

So...all's well that ends well. Don’s patience, advice, and help have been incredibly valuable – and I think the whole MMI operation and business philosophy is the greatest!

Thank you!