engine won't start

[sailr]

and the search continues

Well I made it to the boat and did the test on current to the coil. It was positive. Both voltmeter and eyeball test showed current to coil. Got a spark when I got wire close to engine. I would have loved to check to see if there was a spark from the coil wire to distributor, but alas my arms were not long enough to reach the ignition and the coil wire. I did check points and rotor and they were clean and points were open and not stuck together.. Now just have to coax the Wifey to go with me so she can do the ignition switch thing so I can check if coil sends spark. I know it is getting gas from the fumes when I flooded the carb from tuning engine over. I shut off the gas valve so it wouldn't explode if there did happen to be an errant spark. I guess I'll replace the spark plugs if there is spark from the coil. Seems as though if condenser was bad and the coil was good, I would still get a weak spark through the plugs. Any more suggestions? I am certainly open to any and all comments and suggestions.
Sailr

[JOHN COOKSON]

. Now just have to coax the Wifey to go with me so she can do the ignition switch thing so I can check if coil sends spark.
Sailr

Skip the "Wifey".
Get a remote start switch instead. Available at your local auto parts stores for 3 or 4 bucks. I keep mine on the boat so it is handy when I need it.

TRUE GRIT

[tenders]

Well, maybe a little more than $4. But when you see what it does you'll realize you can accomplish the same thing with some wire that you probably have lying around anyway. A switch is recommended, which you might have hanging around in the same box as the wire, but they don't call it "hotwiring" for nothing.

https://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-remote-starter-switch-35448.html

[tenders]

It seems like you have fuel, at least to the carb, and there's a strong possibility of spark, at least to the distributor.

The proper functioning of the carb is a big and frankly likely issue to resolve, but there are some easy spark troubleshooting steps that can be ruled out first.

When you took off the cap to check the points and such, are you POSITIVE that you put the plug wires back on in the proper order? As the rotor spins, that order is 1-2-4-3.

It is not 1-2-3-4, which is easy to do by mistake.

Nor is it 4-3-1-2...in other words, 180 degrees out of proper phase. This is possible if your engine has an unusual installation, as mine does with a v-drive, but you're comparing your setup to somebody else's with the standard installation (ie, the "forward" plug is #4 instead of #1). It can also happen if at some point the distributor was put in out of phase, which also happened to me. It's like wearing a watch upside down - it works fine, as long as you know what you're looking at.

It took me days of hapless frustration many years ago on a mooring in the rough Hudson River to figure this out after I replaced my points. I now have pieces of tape labeling each socket on my distributor cap with the proper plug, and meticulously label new caps like this before installing them.

If you're reasonably confident that is OK, the next thing I'd be checking is is fuel pressure to the carb (check the forum for suggestions on a $20 fuel pressure gauge, which is perhaps the most useful troubleshooting tool you can have on the engine), followed by the cleanliness of the carb passages since it is possible that the fuel is stale and the passages have gotten gummed up.

Once she gets running I'd suggest burning down the current fuel ASAP, and treating all the future fuel that ever goes into the tank with Sta-Bil or equivalent, if for no other reason than to help rule out stale ethanol-laden fuel if there are performance questions in the future.

[wristwister]

These 'no start' situations are no fun - whether it's your Atomic 4 or your weed whacker. My first test is always a short blast of starting ether. If the engine starts and runs for a few seconds on the ether, you know you have a fuel issue. If the engine doesn't respond to the ether, you know you have a spark issue.

Sailr, did you ever try this? Might shortcut a bunch of troubleshooting.

[sailr]

and the search continues

Yep I tried starter fluid. Problem is there is no spark to spark plugs..

All the wires are in correct position on distributor cap and run to the right plug.
have them all labeled.

Problem is I bought a new coil and not sure it is good since I can't check the coil wire to distributor.

I forgot to check that the negative wire to distributor from coil is intact and working. So along with checking wire from coil to distributor and that negative wire to coil I need to get that done.

I'll check on remote starter also. After that I don't know what to try. It may be that the coil I bought is bad and I will have to buy another if the parts place won't exchange it.

Thanks again for all the advice.
Sailr

[alcodiesel]

"After that I don't know what to try."

Easy Sailr, try to have patience.

How does one eat an elephant? One spoon at a time.

Many fellas replace everything and still have the original or a new problem. One system at a time.

These guys have walked many a "dead" A4 back to life.

[ndutton]

Seems I'm lecturing a lot lately

Sailr, the guys are trying to help but you're the one on the front line, boots on the ground so to speak so everyone is relying on information provided by you. The first thing I'd like to suggest is let's stop the guessing. Guessing is not troubleshooting. Throwing parts at the guesses is not troubleshooting either.

1. Based on information you've provided I understand you measured voltage (not current) between the small coil + post and the engine ground with the ignition switch turned to RUN. Good, but how much voltage? Please get back with a number, should be between 10 and 13.
2. You said, "The points are open, not stuck together." Good, but as the engine turns, are they closing too? This is easily checked with the ignition off, distributor cap removed and turning the engine by hand at the flywheel with an MMI hand crank or a modified 13/16" spark plug socket, counterclockwise facing the flywheel. Removing the spark plugs will make it easier to turn. Please confirm the points are closing and opening as the engine turns.
3. Have you measured the points gap at its maximum? Yes or no. If yes, what was the measurement?
4. Before buying another new one, coil function can be easily tested by one person. Remove the black wire off the small coil - post and connect a one foot 14 gauge wire to the empty post. Strip back the other end of the wire and set it so it doesn't touch anything. Have the thick secondary coil wire in the center of the coil and the other end such that you can hold it with insulated pliers (pull the boot back to expose the metal end connector) with one hand when the time comes. Turn on the ignition switch to RUN. Hold the loose end of the thick coil wire about 1/4" away from the engine block or head (pliers please). With the stripped end of the 14 gauge wire in your other hand, touch and remove the bare end to the engine block in split second intervals. You should see a snappy blue spark jumping from the end of the thick coil wire to the block. If not, the coil is dead and NOW you have a reason to replace it. Please reply with the exact result of this test. Be sure to turn the ignition off before reconnecting the original wire to the small coil - post.
5. What was the internal resistance of the coil you bought? Should be a number between 3/4 and 3.
6. During your prior efforts/parts replacements did you remove the distributor from the engine? Yes or no.

The precise answers to these questions will help us help you. Please help us.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Let's Get On The Same Page

Problem is I bought a new coil and not sure it is good since I can't check the coil wire to distributor.
Sailr

I think you are referring to the large wire that runs between the center of the coil and the center of the distributor??? Or the wire from coil - to the distributor???
Please tell us what the problem is with checking either wire.

TRUE GRIT

[sailr]

and the search continues

Ok I have spark from the coil. Finally got a chance to check it out.

So now I need to check if rotor is actually making contact with top of distributor cap, if rotor tip in making contact with contacts on distributor cap for each wire to spark plugs, and if points are opening and closing.

If the condenser is bad I should still have a weak spark to plugs right? That was a problem I had before was the condenser was bad but I still got a weak spark, but not enough to initiate combustion. Can a bad condenser cause there to be no spark?

Current on wire from ignition switch to + contact on coil measured out at 12 v.

I remember on a Catalina 27 that I had in Hawaii had a real persnickity attitude with distributor caps. I went thru several before I got one that would work and transfer the sparks to the plugs. I don't know if it was a manufacturing defect or what. I tried replacing rotors with the other caps that wouldn't work and it made no difference. When I replaced the one cap that had worked, everything ran like a top.

That was 1994 and caps and rotors were cheap, now the cost is almost prohibitive for that kind of experimenting.

I digress anyway the distributor cap on now worked fine until I had to let the boat sit up for several months.

The distributor was never removed from the engine or position changed.

Winds and thunderstorms are back so will be a few days before I can get back to the boat. Lake Charles, LA is really having a bad time with rain and strong winds. I also pulled a muscle in my back messing around on the boat so have to heal up a bit. Doesn't pay to be Old!

sailr

[ndutton]

More details please

How did you determine you had spark? What was the quality of the spark, wimpy yellow or snapping blue? If you're convinced the condenser is suspect, why not just change it so you can put it to rest and move on? It's cheap and easy to do.

Waiting on the points open/close test.

[CajunSpike]

Its also easy and costs nothing to make sure your points gap is still set correctly at .02 of an inch.

When i got my boat, the points were set like at .05"
Spark would happen but was weak white spark not crisp snappy blue.

That was the clue that gave the solution.

[edwardc]

... Doesn't pay to be Old!...sailr

But it beats the alternative!

[Sam]

Don't know about a weak spark but a few years ago my early model A4 would stop running repeatedly after about 5 minutes and perplexed everyone. An old harbor salt told me to change the condenser out. Ran great after that. Apparently heat or internal current can sometimes have a negative effect. Small cost and effort and worth a try.

[sailr]

Hurrah!

All right! got the engine running. Took distributor cap off and discovered negative wire from coil along with wire from condenser had twisted up and was blocking points and keeping distributor cap from being seated completely, even though I had tightened the screws holding the distributor cap as tight as I could. Evidently there was enough of a gap to break contact with rotor and top of distributor cap. Reseated wires and replaced the cap and she fired right up.

I want to thank all you guys and gals for your helpful hints and suggestions and also for Moyer Marine for their check list of things to check when engine won't start.

Now on to the rewiring of the "Old Boat"

Sailr