My turn!! BUT she not turn over lol

[Sea Haven]

Over the last two years of ownership, she'd turn over every time that starter button was pressed. She may not have started from other issues, but always turn over she did!

Last weekend she ran fine. Started right up at the mooring, sailed the day away, started right up to enter the harbor and make way to the mooring.

This morning I ran through the normal pre-underway checklist, turned on the ignition key and was greeted by the as usual 90db Low Oil Pressure Alarm along with the equally angry Red Led glaring at me in the cockpit (I like sound and Led confirmation with my Cole Hersee Low oil pressure switch, I can see or hear issues in the loudest storm in the darkest of night!).
So far so good! Check she's in neutral, pull out the choke, two quick pumps on the throttle, push the starter...and nothing!! Besides of course the alarm just blaring away.
Try it again, still nothing, but I do notice the alarm dips in tone, and the Ammeter swings from "O" to the first tick to the left which I assume is "-30" as the next and max tick say's "-60".
Try it a third time (third time pay's for all Bilbo's Dad once said) and still the same.
Ok, first thought, not enough juice despite what the ancient "Danforth Charge indicator" read, which is almost a volt below what a modern Volmeter reads. I use a single switch Isolator system. The Starter battery is not used for anything but starting, period. And though I'm on a mooring, both the house and starter batteries are on float charge from independent solar panels. Used this system for the past 10 years with 4 different sailboats and never had an issue. Oh yeah, the batteries are new this year. So I can pretty much rule them out.
Still, despite that knowledge, I combine them to rule it out definitively. Still the exact same symptoms.
At this point...lets go for broke! I pull my ProSeries Emergency Starter Battery, check to see that's charged, and again...no joy, just the same drop in tone, and movement on the Ammeter. The LP Oil alarm just blares at me mockingly!
Now the other symptom I neglected to mention, absolutely NO sound from the starter, no engagement, clicking or otherwise.

So with my limited experience, other than something similar happening with my land ride, is it safe to assume I can go with a solenoid or starter issue?

One thing I am a little peeved about is that I didn't take photo's of the starter to ID exactly what I have on her so I can start pricing replacement parts. I know she's a late model engine, and while I looked to see if access to the starter would be difficult, I have no idea where the solenoid may be.

So, where and how should I start trouble shooting?

"Sub" Ed
SY Sea Haven
'78 Pearson 323

PS: Wasn't a bad day at the mooring, turned lemons into lemonade this Labor Day by using the down time to install a new "Boomkicker" and Mainsail bungie "tie-down" rig. Sad to say I enjoy working on her as much as sailing her lol!! Hope I didn't just jinx myself too bad!!

[Mo]

OK, a few things:
-put a voltmeter on the batteries individually and see what the level is. 12 V is pretty much down...you are looking for 12.5 to 13 V on at least one of them.
-look at battery connections...ensure they are tight, clean and corrosion free.
-check the large cable going to the starter...ensure again that it is tight, clean, and corrosion free.
-also give the starter a shake with your hand and ensure it's on tight and didn't lose ground.
-check engine ground as well.

...I am by no means an electrical guru but that's what you need to check. It doesn't take much power to run the buzzers etc and yes you would expect it to drop out on the activation of the starter as the starter draws allot.

Then, I'd start looking at the starter.

[BunnyPlanet169]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

Now the other symptom I neglected to mention, absolutely NO sound from the starter, no engagement, clicking or otherwise.

I'd start here....

Sounds like the solenoid is stuck. You turn the key, and the ammeter pegs negative because you're drawing a lot of current, but nothing's moving mechanically.

There are two starter solenoid versions - you can see them on the MMI catalog. I'd try replacing this part based on your description.

I might also try tapping the solenoid gently with a hammer while someone turns the key, just to see if it comes free.... But once it starts sticking it's not going to get better....

(P.S. Mo's electrical housekeeping is a good idea first)

[hanleyclifford]

Make sure when you try the starter you are actually getting power to the "S" termnal on the solenoid. Could be a simple corroded connection. Usually a bad solenoid will make some sort of click. If the engine is late model it is a Delco. Solenoid number at NAPA is ST 124.

[lat 64]

Up & locked

Ammeter move like that I think the connections are ok. But I'm not there so do all what Mo says to do for sure.

Maybe a mechanical lockup. Check to see if the engine itself is free to turn over. Move it by turning the shaft while in forward gear or best use a hand crank lever.

Next do the same check for the starter to see if it will even rotate. You may have to take it out to do this on the floor.
If it turns by hand, then "bench test" the starter by itself on the floor to confirm it works.

These are just first doings to isolate the problem. If machine is OK, must be juice eh?

I would get on it pretty fast in case the problem results from water backed up into the engine. A small amount of rust can lockup a motor quickly.

Good luck,

Russ

Edit:
Ok, seems to be 'lectrics.

[ndutton]

Another test to try

Remove the #10 (white?) wire from the solenoid and insulate its terminal. Try the key start again. If the ammeter behaves the same as before the wire is shorted to ground somewhere between the keyswitch and the engine. The usual culprit is laying on the exhaust hot pipe but chafe elsewhere is possible too.

If the ammeter doesn't move, get after the solenoid.

[ArtJ]

Not necessarily the first thing to check, but a couple of years ago
i had excessive negative amperage and it turned out to be a short in
the armature of the starter.

[Mo]

Not necessarily the first thing to check, but a couple of years ago
i had excessive negative amperage and it turned out to be a short in
the armature of the starter.

I've had that happen with a car Art but generally it occurs when the starter has been activated, and kept activated, for long periods of time. It heats up and actually warps. Then a spot on the armature touches to the housing and the starter requires a rebuild. Sometimes theres only one spot and the starter works perfect sometimes but if it stops in the "touching" position after activation it won't go the next time.

Just adding this in case Sub Ed recalls any long activation of the starter.

[Sea Haven]

Thank You!!

Thanks for the VERY quick response guys!

All good suggestions and gives me something to strive for this coming weekend!

FWIW, I remember my ballast resistor would cook so often in my old Chrysler Cordoba that I learned to keep a spare in the glove.

Also my Jeep CJ7 often had to have the terminal on the solenoid shorted with a screwdriver to get going (I was young and more often than not funds went to suds instead of solenoids!!). But I loved that inline 6!

Thought about it for half a second until I remembered the sparking from that action! Definitely NOT ignition protected hehe! Don't want to end up as a candidate for the Darwin Awards!!

I'll provide feedback in the next installment of "How Ed's Engine Turns!!"

"Sub" Ed

[BunnyPlanet169]

The electrical housekeeping suggestions and your car reference remind me of the same problem I had on an old diesel VW Rabbit.... Remember they had the moving seat belt on the door, and separate lap belt?

The car wouldn't start sometimes. No click, no starter, just dead. I'd get out of the car, tap the solenoid with a hammer, get back in and start the car.

Then my 'fix' stopped working. Fine, I replace the starter. Still not working. ?!?!

Turned out it was the seat lap belt interlock.... A previous owner had put in a jumper that meant I didn't need to have the lap belt fastened to start. Except it became intermittent, and getting out of the seat with the hammer, and jumping back in was sometimes enough to jiggle it back to working....

Anyhow - do the housekeeping - it's a great idea.

[Sea Haven]

Promised feedback.

Made it out to the mooring today.

Immediately climbed into the starboard cockpit locker, removed all the terminal connectors from both starter and house batteries.

Using an emery cloth and steel wool, I cleaned all surfaces of all terminals as well as all surfaces on the battery studs and wingnuts.

I laid on some anti corrosion spray, climbed out, and decided to give it a try at that point to see if that was the culprit before I went to clean the terminal on the solenoid.

She turned right over and started right up!

Needless to say, thank you for guiding me to start with the simple solution first.

Two thinks of note....

1-While I wouldn't say they were "corroded" , they were definitely "tarnished".
2-A week or two prior to this event, I had moved the connections both bilge pumps from the battery terminal itself to the HOT side (Battery side) of the Blue Sea Battery Switch. This was to limit the amount of connections on the battery terminals as well as keep all fuses in the same general area in the other locker by the fuse panel. Perhaps this little act aggravated an already poor connection?

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on it to see if the cleaning really did the trick. If I have no issues before hauling day, I'll clean the solenoid side over winter refit.

Plan to do this cleaning terminal cleaning EVERY spring, I remove the batteries over the winter anyway.

FWIW, in anticipation of it being the solenoid (my issues are never resolved this easily lol), I did pick up the NAPA ST124 over the week. So I'll just keep it as a spare if the current one does fail. Of note, when the young lady handed it to me she remarked "This must be for a boat, we don't sell many any more." My reply, "You know your $#*!" She laughed.

"Sub" Ed

[ndutton]

Of note, when the young lady handed it to me she remarked "This must be for a boat, we don't sell many any more."

Oh man, I'm in love!