Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Troubleshooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 192.62.14.99
Old 09-08-2010, 06:16 PM
breweraz's Avatar
breweraz breweraz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 38
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
water logged A4

A week ago Friday, I went out to the mooring and ran the motor for 3 hours to charge the batteries. During this time there were no issues. The motor started great, ran strong, (between 1000 - 1200 RPM for charging).

The water temp was not coming up so I open one of the return water lines that cycles engine water back into the intake side. The temp went up to 160 and was stable.

When I turned the motor off i checked the water strainer, as I had not opened this valve this summer, to see if any crud came through. There were a few rust particles.

While running the motor I notice a small exhaust leak on the bottom side of the exhaust flange. We are a month away from haul out so I bought some exhaust putty to plug the leak and left it sit overnight.

The boat started the next morning with no problems and I let it idle to warm up. I started to head out running at 1500 RPM under power. I noticed that the engine started to heat up faster than usual as it usually takes 45 minute to 1 hour to reach 150 -160 degrees. She had a knocking sound like spark knock and I turned her off.

I started checking the usual issues, clogged intake,clogged water filter, impeller etc and nothing seemed to be the issue. I sailed the boat back to the mooring ball. The motor was cool so I started it with the sea cock closed. It started right up with no problems. I left the motor in low idle and took it to the dock (2- 3 minutes.) She ran fine. Once secured to the dock I turned the motor off and let it cool off.

After 15 minutes I started the motor up with no problems and open the sea cock. It ran for a few minutes than shut off. The motor would not start. I pulled the plugs and there was water in all four cylinders.

I took off the water pump cover and drained the block of water, pulled each of the plugs and placed my thumb over the spark plug hole and turned to motor over with the key. I repeated this for each of the four cylinders. There is enough pressure in each cylinder to push my thumb off. I turned the motor over to push as much water out and tried to start it but it would nto start.

I had to clear the dock and it was getting late so I poured some oil in each
cylinder hole and thumb tightened the spark plugs by hand.

Some other history.

In May when I brought the boat down from her winter hard I started the engine in the harbor and forgot the sea cock. I overheated the motor. I used this to event to change the oil (again), replace all of the water lines, the wet exhaust line and the Vetus water lock.

The motor has run very strong over the summer. I have logged over 1300 NM this sailing ME including over 100 hrs of motoring. It has not given me any problems. It starts very quickly and has run strong. That is why this was such a surprise.

The only things that were out of the normal or different was

1. Plugging the exhaust leak at the exhaust flange - this may have created a new pressure point and caused a failure of the exhaust gasket or head gasket at a different place.

2. Opening the return line to the cold water intake - this may have pushed some debris through the system causing a block. if the block was at the mixer loop than some water could have been forced back through into the exhaust.

Following Don's list of causes I can rule out cranking as the engine was running when the problem first came up and ran with the seacock closed. It failed when I opened the seacok when it was running.

The compression is the cyclinders all seem strong using the thumb technique

I will next try the pressure on the exhaust head and hope it is not the block.

Any other thoughts are appreciated or a lead on a A4 mechnic in midcoast ME that would come fix her up as AZ is calling me home.

Tim
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 09-08-2010, 10:09 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Question

This "return line to the cold water intake " is interesting. Could you be more specific about where it actually connects?
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 144.160.130.16
Old 09-09-2010, 08:30 AM
rheaton rheaton is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rockaway, NJ
Posts: 134
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
You might want to check your anti-siphon valve.
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 192.62.14.99
Old 09-09-2010, 05:31 PM
breweraz's Avatar
breweraz breweraz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 38
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
return line

This is an early model motor with no thermostat. Where the water exits the block on the exhaust side there is a T. One lines goes out to the exhaust mixer and the other lines connects into a T at the top of the seacock so it feeds hot water into the cold side of the circuit. This line is controled by a ball valve.

Hopes that helps.

Tim
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 173.9.105.253
Old 09-09-2010, 06:24 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
From the description of your recirculating loop it sounds like the water did indeed come back to the cylinders via the exhaust mixer. When an engine is shut off some expansion of the water in the block can occur. Also depending on the relative heights of these components, some siphoning could be taking place internally especially if the bypass valve were left open. This addresses #2 on your first post. So why did this happen now? Now on to the #1 on the first post. The exhaust leak that you repaired could have been fulfilling one or two functions. 1. It may have provided an air leak to break the siphon circuit or 2. It could have provided a path for the water to get to the bilge and not the engine.
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 142.68.246.29
Old 09-10-2010, 04:27 AM
rigspelt's Avatar
rigspelt rigspelt is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,187
Thanks: 0
Thanked 19 Times in 17 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by breweraz View Post
This is an early model motor with no thermostat. Where the water exits the block on the exhaust side there is a T. One lines goes out to the exhaust mixer and the other lines connects into a T at the top of the seacock so it feeds hot water into the cold side of the circuit. This line is controled by a ball valve. Hopes that helps. Tim
Tim, does it look like this? I did this drawing for a recent thread where the gang discussed coolant flows. I don't have an early model A4, but they said the drawing is typical.
Attached Images
 
__________________
1974 C&C 27

Last edited by rigspelt; 09-11-2010 at 04:38 PM. Reason: Revised diagram to delete "T-Fitting" label
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 166.137.133.139
Old 09-11-2010, 10:09 AM
breweraz's Avatar
breweraz breweraz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 38
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
The diagram is close. Where the cold water enters the block there is a T. A hose loops around the front of the motor and connects back into t just before the mixer. That line has a ball check valve to control the water flow. It is left open all the time. I will be working on her this weekend and was going to start with the mixer anti syphon. Valve as well.

Thanks

Last edited by breweraz; 09-11-2010 at 10:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 09-11-2010, 10:49 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Is there any harm in plumbing the system like the late model engines, thereby eliminating the thermostat and return line? A line from the diverter going to a T in the crossover loop with a ball valve midway would nearly mirror the later engines. Temp would be controlled via the ball valve.

That return line is bugging me. If there's no anti siphon valve in it (or one not functioning properly) and the thru-hull were left open it looks like an open invitation to a flood.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 64.203.32.52
Old 09-11-2010, 11:19 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Question No syphon?

I tend to agree with Niel in that the leak in the exhaust was your "anti-syphon" function of the cooling system.
Where does the engine sit related to the waterline? If it is below the waterline I don't see how it would work without a anti-syphon valve set up. If it is above the water line youu should be ok.
There are probably a couple of ways to route the water system to eliminate the thermostat, but if the lowest exhaust valve is below the waterline you will need an anti-syphon valve.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 09-11-2010, 01:31 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

It sounds like some one has built into your early model engine one of the worst aspects of the late model, namely the "T" fitting at the water jacket side plate. The diagram Rigspelt posted shows a 90, but mislabeled as a "T". I would not rely on a check valve. A better configuration is to run your bypass from a "T" at the aft end of the manifold. Use a ball valve in that loop.
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 71.191.250.44
Old 09-11-2010, 02:37 PM
keelcooler keelcooler is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: McLean Va
Posts: 282
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Sounds like you have two temp control systems. Both have ball valve controls and no thermostats. I prefer the full flow early system that Niel has displayed. You do not need or want both. When you replaced the exhaust hose and vetus did you inspect/clean the mixer? The boys are correct you must install a vented loop in that type of system. I want to know more about that manifold external leak. Is the rear manifold leak a rusted out area or a horizontal freeze type crack. If it’s leaking externally it could be leaking inside dumping down into the exhaust ports. You can pressure test the manifold water jacket to eliminate this cause. Is your patch holding up?
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 142.68.246.29
Old 09-11-2010, 04:33 PM
rigspelt's Avatar
rigspelt rigspelt is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,187
Thanks: 0
Thanked 19 Times in 17 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
The diagram Rigspelt posted shows a 90, but mislabeled as a "T".
Aha - I had drawn the diagram for a late model first, then modified it for an early model, and did not change that label. Will do so.
__________________
1974 C&C 27
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 72.224.247.80
Old 09-11-2010, 11:53 PM
breweraz's Avatar
breweraz breweraz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 38
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I added the lines to your diagram that show how my water system works, The blue ball and handles reflrct the location of the ball type check valves.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 72.224.247.80
Old 09-12-2010, 12:06 AM
breweraz's Avatar
breweraz breweraz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 38
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
update

I got the motor running today. She started right up after the water was cleared out of the cylinders and the carb, If I turn off the motor with the seacock open it dumps water back in the cylinders and carb. The oil has no water in it.

If I shut off the seacock and let the motor run and pump out the water for 1 to 2 minutes there is no water on the cylinders and she starts up fine. She runs strong and across all power ranges.


The mixing chamber is the old Westerbeke chamber and is well above the water line. The motor is below the water line.

Yes the exhaust patch is holding.
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 09-12-2010, 12:06 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
I would be interested to hear the reasoning behind that loop at the front of the engine. It seems unneccessary and if the valve is left open has the potential of admitting water to the combustion chambers.
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 75.194.43.192
Old 09-12-2010, 02:21 PM
breweraz's Avatar
breweraz breweraz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 38
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
water logged A2 update

The problem was a breach in the exhaust manifold wall allowing water into the exhaust chamber. When the motor is running the exhaust was enough to push the water out. When at low RPM or when the motor was shut off the water ran into the exhasut side into the cylinders and would drain down into the carb.

Regarding the water line This was the configuration when I bought the boat and I thought this was the proper configuration.

Since there is no thermostat in the system I assumed it was another way to regulate water flow. The boat is sailed in ME and generally in sub 60 degree water. It is hard to get the motor above 130 degrees without adjusting the water flow by either opening the loop lin or the return line which increases the water temperature.

I am only guessing here.

Tim
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 173.9.105.253
Old 09-12-2010, 02:43 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

If you have an internal breach in the manifold, that fairly well trumps the rest of the discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 71.198.140.19
Old 09-13-2010, 02:33 AM
tony201's Avatar
tony201 tony201 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Rodeo Calif.
Posts: 40
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Pressure test the manifold

A very good idea to listen Hanley.
I've rebuilt five Atomic 4s so far and I do an air pressure test on all the manifolds on the water jacket side . Out of the five there were two that leaked air into the exhaust chamber. not good. Will cause a mucho grief
good luck

201
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 09-13-2010, 10:27 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

I am not aware of any way to repair a manifold with an internal compromise. It must be replaced. This is a good time and incentive to switch to antifreeze cooling with the new manifold.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water in Cylinders, Blown Head Gasket edwardc Troubleshooting 37 10-01-2010 05:13 PM
Water bubbling out around spark plugs-need help BobA Troubleshooting 21 10-21-2009 10:54 PM
Uh Oh...Water in Cylinders mike7a10 Exhaust System 10 05-19-2009 05:35 AM
re-plumbing for hot water heater operation Jesse Delanoy Cooling System 10 04-21-2008 08:05 PM
Another ethanol question Bob N Fuel System 7 01-07-2007 06:22 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved