Couldn't restart engine

[Sarns]

Brand new to the forum. Just motored 5 hours to a secluded bay along the coast of Nova Scotia, dropped the "hook" and turned off the engine. I needed to restart the A-4 approximately 5 minutes after initially turning it off and nothing... nada... The lights on the instrument panel worked ok and there was plenty of battery power. My knowledge of engines is limited (very) so a cursory inspection revealed little. I let the engine sit for approximately ten minutes, tried the key once again, and lo and behold it started. Clearly something is amiss, any suggestions.

[smosher]

Hi Sarns and welcome to the forum. It could be several things either gas or electrical. Tell us about your engine, old or new style, mechanical fuel pump, or electric pump, points or electronic ignition. What boat you have etc..

3 things to try next time it happens to narrow it down. Take off the flame arrestor and see if there's gas in the bottom of the throat. Take out a spark plug and with the lead still attached lay it against the head. Turn the engine over and see if you have spark. Lastly from me anyway, unscrew the gas cap and try it again.

Let us know what you find / have

Steve

[romantic comedy]

Welcome to the forum. You will find some great guys here, and very helpful too.

When an engine will not start, there is a simple way of trouble shooting. Steve was was on it.

You need 3 things: Gas, spark, compression.

First thing I so is remove a spark plug and smell for gas, or look at the plug.

Check for spark, buy hooking plug to wire, grounding plug, and cranking engine. You can also just take coil wire and hole it 1/8 inch away from the ground, and crank away.

Check for gas. I keep starting fluid on board. (ether) You squirt it in the spark arrester, and crank the engine. If the engine starts, and runs for a few seconds, then you know it is a fuel problem.

99 percent of the time, the issue is not compression. This just means that the mechanics of the engine are working. The pistons are going up and down, and the valves are operating, etc...

[Marian Claire]

Welcome to the forum. When you say "nothing" do you mean it did not start or it did not crank? Dan S/V Marian Claire

[Mo]

Sarns....where exactly are you. Look for spark, if no spark or yellow spark ...and if you are points and condenser... change the condenser. Happened to me once. Took me a few minutes to figure out what was going on...sometimes corrosion builds around the condensers and after a long run fire is affected.

If you don't have EI give Ken a call at MMI and pick up Electronic Ignition and a 4 ohm resisted coil...will take care of that stuff. If you end up in and around Halifax let me know. So friggin busy this weekend (my friend was killed in a motorcylce accident on Thursday and his wife was killed three years ago in a car crash... so helping the kids with all sorts of stuff). If you are still experiencing problems after Wednesday by all means send me a PM. I will be heading out on the boat next weekend myself...will need a break by then.

[zellerj]

My guess is that you have a poor connection that sometimes lead to nothing happening when you turn the key. Since starting the engine draws a lot more juice than lights and instrument panel, a poor connection will manifest itself with a "nada" when the key is turned. Start with the batteries, then the connections of the large wires to the starter and ground - those circuits carry the most juice. If they have not been cleaned in a few years, now would be a good time to clean them up with emery cloth or fine sand paper. Then make sure all the wires are in good condition at the switch and the solenoid of the starter.

Best,
Jim

[Sarns]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Once I return to home port I'll begin to narrow down the possible causes. For those interested my present location is 44 degrees 28.496 N, 63 degrees 45.342 W. Also known as Rogues Roost.

Cheers

[Sarns]

smosher et al

To answer your question, which would make answering mine far easier ... it's a newer model (1979) with a mechanical pump, points, a mind of her own and installed on a home made 34' sailboat.

[Marian Claire]

Digging the home made boat part as the MC is the same. Still need to know what " nothing, nada" means. Be safe out there. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[Al Schober]

Sarns,
Until we hear otherwise, we have to assume than even the starter doesn't turn when you turn the key. That would definately be 'nada'.
Bad ignition switch comes to mind (& easy to fix). Use a test light to see if you're getting power to the small connection on the starter solenoid when you turn the key to start. If not, it's the switch or wiring. If you get power there but no starter action, it's the solenoid, the starter, or a bad connection to the battery.
Give us some more info. What do you do, and what happens??

[Mo]

Sarns, you are at the Roost...one of my weekend hiding spots. Remove the distributer cap and remove the condenser...scrape the metal on the plate and on the condenser and re install. Sometimes corrosion causes problems on the grounding.

I live in Halifax area Shearwater Yacht Club...902 461 122 eight if you need to call me. Home right now.

PS .. the bottom is terrible there....all kelp and rock. If you are not on a mooring throw down a Bruce or CQR and throw it in reverse until you hook something solid...terrible to try and get a hold with a Danforth. FWIW.

[Sony2000]

5 hours of motoring and then after 5 minutes it wouldn't restart.
Did you use the choke?
Where was the throttle set?
I think I wouldn't use the choke, and add a little bit more than usual throttle.

[romantic comedy]

Thinking about this, I remembered that this was fairly common, back in the eighties.
I had this issues with a VW bug. I would be on the hwy and stop for a few minutes. Then when I tried starting it, it would stall. Waited a few minutes, and it would start with no prob.

The same thing happened with a 1969 johnson 40 hp, i had. It was a hand pull start. When I had t he cover off, I could see fuel foaming out the carb....

Anyway, a friend or mine, went to a Chrysler conference. They told them that this problem was do to fuel foaming, or some such expression. It had to do with the fuel in the bowl being hot, and the incoming fuel being much colder. It would cause fuel to spill into the engine, and cause a rich condition.

With the Atomic Four, we have an updraft carb, but it still may be the cause.

Just something to consider.

[Carl-T705]

Hi Mo, That is very very kind of you to help that family,What a tragic set of circumstances. It's situations like that I'm reminded of, when I think I'm having a bad day.

[Sarns]

Returned to home port motoring entire way. As before, once I turned off the engine I couldn't restart it. Now the detective work begins... Once again here are the symptoms: I ran the engine for approximately 4 hours. I then turned the engine off and tried to restart and nothing happened. The starter didn't turn, no whirs, bangs or grunts... nothing. Once the engine cools down (about 20 minutes) it will restart as if nothing was wrong. Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions.

[Marian Claire]

Good to hear all is well sans the restart issue. Sounds like you have a heat sensitive electrical connection. I think the engine/engine compartment hit their highest temp just after shut down. Just look at your temp gauge after shutdown. Underway you have air flow due to motion and due to the intake of air to the carb plus the normal cooling. At shut down all that stops unless you run the blower. A multimeter could tell you allot if you test just after shut down. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[zellerj]

http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/...ing-system.htm

[Mo]

Originally Posted by zellerj

http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/...ing-system.htm

Absolutely a good place to start since it won't turn over when this occurs.

There is another possibility as well. Armatures on starters can warp slightly...when the starter is cold it works fine...may even start to turn over slowly at first then speed up and the engine starts. Once the starter is warm, even from engine heat, the tiny bit of metal expansion cause a short as it contact the housing... and it won't work...as the engine cools the contact is lost and it again works to start the boat.

[Nick duBois]

Mo,

How warm are you talking about? I had the same problem as Sarns did when I anchored off Inner Sambro Island on the weekend. Engine ran for a few hours and I sailed back to Sambro only to have her not start a few hundread feet from the dock. Last time I tried to start her the engine temp was 110F. When I turn the key the ammeter drops to the left at 15 or more amps but not a click or sound is made. The plunger does not engage the bendix.

[Mo]

Nick,
You problem sounds a little different. Check all grounds and positive connections and check the igntion switch as well. Typically when the starter is shorted out due to armature warpage there is still solenoid "click" activation. Shorted armatures generally happen when a starter is cranked for long periods of time in a no start situation at some point. Once the problem occurs it becomes progressively worse ... the length of time it lasts is directly proportional to how much the starter is used after that.

But getting back to your problem.
-wiring is my first guess...especially check route from ignition switch
-positive and negative grounds.
-solonoid gone on starter.

[edwardc]

Originally Posted by Nick duBois

...When I turn the key the ammeter drops to the left at 15 or more amps but not a click or sound is made. The plunger does not engage the bendix.

There is a scenario that explains this. It's one I used to see on my Volkswagens.

The coil in the solenoid actually consists of two windings. This is because the magnetic field needed to pull-in the plunger and engage the bendix is much greater than the field needed to hold it in place once actuated. So they use two windings, and arrange things so that one is always energized when starting, while the other is only energized when the plunger is not actuated. One end of each winding is connected to the "S" terminal. The other end of one of them is connected to ground via the housing. It always gets power when +12 is applied to the "S" terminal.

The other end of the other winding is connected internally to the "+" terminal of the starter motor itself. Since the motor windings are such a low resistance compared to the coil windings, most of the 12v is dropped across the coil, generating extra magnetic field, helping to pull-in the plunger.

When the plunger pulls-in, it connects the heavy battery terminal to the "+" side of the motor, causing it to start. But this also connects the other side of the second winding to +12 too. Now, this winding has both sides connected to +12, and it draws no current, effectively dropping out of the circuit. But the remaining winding has enough magnetic field to hold the plunger engaged.

The "no start" problem occurs when some corrosion, wear, or dirt starts to build up on the brush contacts in the starter motor itself. This causes additional resistance, which in turn reduces the current through that second solenoid winding. If the starter just happens to land on one of these "bad" spots after starting, the next time you try, it won't start. Draws current, but no "click" from the plunger.

On the Volkswagen, I used to get out of this by briefly shorting the main battery terminal on the starter to the "S" terminal with a screwdriver. This would bypass all of the starter switch wiring (and its associated resistance) and provide slightly more current to the solenoid. This would be enough to "bump" the starter motor off of the weak spot, which would then allow starting with the key as usual.

[romantic comedy]

Ed, I had that problem with VWs too. There were so many starters laying around, so we never really looked into it. Now I know. Cool!

[domenic]

Sarns, when the little bitch (A4) won't do what you want, just give her a kiss between the first, and second spark plug...she'll turn over every time.

[joseph miller]

when Mo offers to help they are not hollow promises.
he just helped me with a gearbox issue this week.
when you steamed 4 hrs from Rogues was it towards or away from Halifax.

joe

Tartan 27 in Halifax NS
P.S.
Mo, as George C. says, lets go over to the Royal and scuff up their floors

[sastanley]

Originally Posted by Marian Claire

Good to hear all is well sans the restart issue. Sounds like you have a heat sensitive electrical connection. I think the engine/engine compartment hit their highest temp just after shut down. Just look at your temp gauge after shutdown. Underway you have air flow due to motion and due to the intake of air to the carb plus the normal cooling. At shut down all that stops unless you run the blower. A multimeter could tell you allot if you test just after shut down. Dan S/V Marian Claire

Dan, I am with you on this one. these are hard to troubleshoot.

Sarns, maybe try a jumper wire from the big battery cable on the starter (always hot as long as the battery switch is on) to the coil (+) and see what happens when you try to start. Remember that the coil is energized in this configuration and you will need to remove the jumper to turn off the engine and also to avoid frying the coil, no matter what the key position.

Mo..a good man, you are.