atomic 4 - 6 months of salt water - lost cause?

[taylor]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post on the atomic fourum. I’ve been reading a lot over the past couple of weeks. (Two weeks ago I knew nothing about engines. Yesterday I pulled the head on mine. Thank you guys for keeping up such a great forum.)

I bought a sailboat with a non-working A-4. I’m trying to get it going, and I’m trying to figure out whether this will be cost effective compared to simply purchasing a running or rebuilt A-4.

History of my engine:

PO says it was running great until it started producing black smoke (blowby?). He worked on it and got rid of the smoke, but it kept coming back every two months or so. He eventually had it pulled and rebuilt. (I’m not sure of the extent of the job.) And when he reconnected it and started it, water was coming out “from between the manifold and the carb.” He shut it off and left it. He had been working on it for too long and after a $2000 rebuild, did not want to hassle with the engine anymore. It has now sat for 6 months since he shut it off.

It’s raw water cooled, and I assumed that it would need a new manifold (that the current one must have enough internal corrosion that the cooling water was leaking into the other parts of the manifold), assuming the water was not in the engine.

However, as I’ve started troubleshooting, I’ve found the engine to now be seized. I pulled the head last night. The cylinders were full of salt water, and the head gasket was falling apart. I assume now that the source of the water was the only partially gasketted gap between the cooling passages in the head and the block. (PO says the gasket was replaced. I'm not sure.)

I cleared the cylinders and the cooling passages with a wet/dry vacuum and filled the cylinders with marvel mystery oil. I plan to try to turn the engine over once the MMO has sat a few days. In the meantime, I think I will dissemble, inspect, and clean the manifold and the carburetor to the extent possible.

I've attempted to attach a picture of the engine after I got the water out. (Not sure if it is here.)



Questions:

1. In the expert opinion of those here, can this engine be saved after sitting full of salt water for 6 months? (I've consulted a couple of people who say "No way. It's dead.")

2. If everything was working before the engine filled with water, what are the chances that new rings, gaskets, and valves (and possibly new pistons and a cylinder bore job from a machine shop) will be enough to get the engine running? (That is, is it likely that the alternator, coil, carb, flywheel, crankshaft, cooling system, etc are all forked from the salt water, too?)


3. I’ve found one on Craigslist that claims to be rebuilt (rings, bearings, valve grind/job ). The seller is asking $2600. The skeptic in me says that I could replace those parts for $400. The other skeptic in me says that this is hopelessly naïve as my engine is not running, and I don’t know whether new rings and valves plus a bit of elbow grease would be enough to make it work. What do you all think?

4. What further diagnostic steps would you recommend taking to determine the extent of the further damage?


Thank you for any help you guys can offer!


Taylor

[Sony2000]

How good is the boat that will receive an installed $3000 engine or a $1000 non rebuilt engine?
Can you see yourself doing most of a rebuild over a year or so?

[Mo]

Welcome.

Hi Taylor,

Welcome aboard. Since you have the head off you now need to free up the engine. To do this mix up some actetone 50 /50 (compliments of ndutton) with some transmission fluid and put it in those cylinder bores...leave it a day and try to get that engine rotating...keep repeating until it moves.

Then, once you get it rotating, turn the crank and as the pistons move up and down in the bores and inspect the bores. Look for a small hole in them and /or a rust spot that has developed. If the bores look good you should be able to go on with putting a new head gasket etc and using the engine.

At this time it would be a good idea to suck some of the oil out of the base pan. Suck from the bottom of the base pan and see if you are sucking water out of there. A broken manifold could have put steam and or water into the combustion chambers; a broken head gasket would do the same; and a hole rusted through the block through a cylinder could possibly do it as well.

There are a few other areas water could "get on the wrong side" of its passages but I think if you check these ones out you will see what you have. All of the cylinders seem to have rust, so I'd be thinking manifold breach or massive water came back through exhaust...something along those lines. There are a few guys on here that could easily talk you through pressure testing your block as well.

Take a pic of your hot exhaust for us as well...looking at the pic cyl 3 and 4 look a little worse...that could drain through a ruptured head gasket, but I'm thinking more likely it will be water via poor exhaust setup or ruptured manifold.

Good luck and I hope it's not too serious.

[Dave Neptune]

Oh boy 2 stuck ones

Taylor, first welcome to the MMI Afourian Forum!
I too bought a frozen A-4 attached to a sailboat 29 years ago. I got it to spin and did a valve job and had to replace one exhaust valve. That engine is still running strong today!! The A-4 is quite resistant to the woes of rust due the the nickel content.
From the pic you posted I'd say mine looked a lot worse as the water line was over the starter and the engine was full.
There is hope and you got to believe!
I'd also say the PO cranked with the water intake open and that is how the water enchroachment started.
Patience is going to be needed getting it free.

Dave Neptune

[Sony2000]

I'm one that believes that siezed engines can be restarted, and you could afford to risk the time trying, since it is in the boat and connected.. But the cylinder wall rusting scares me. It probably is excessive.
All this to say I've seen a tool that gently resufaces the walls of cylinders, by spinning three small pads of stone around, at the end of drill.
Then if you get the compression up to 70 psi, running it, may get you more!

[Mo]

Taylor, first welcome to the MMI Afourian Forum!
I too bought a frozen A-4 attached to a sailboat 29 years ago. I got it to spin and did a valve job and had to replace one exhaust valve. That engine is still running strong today!! The A-4 is quite resistant to the woes of rust due the the nickel content.
From the pic you posted I'd say mine looked a lot worse as the water line was over the starter and the engine was full.
There is hope and you got to believe!
I'd also say the PO cranked with the water intake open and that is how the water enchroachment started.
Patience is going to be needed getting it free.

Dave Neptune

I should have mentioned cleaning up the valves...for they likely are going to be stuck as well, just as Dave says. If, as Dave suggested, he continued to crank it with the raw water valve open it would indeed flood the combustion chambers with water as well. You would think an experience owner would know not to do that.

I was leaning toward exhaust back-flow because if the engine was out for a rebuild the hot exhaust may have been altered causing a problem.
You will need to pressure test the manifold for sure. So, there's lots of things to check but certainly no need to panic at this point...it will all come.

[lat 64]

Welcome

Yea, work on the idea that you are getting this one running. You will be, at the least by those actions, preserving the parts and block better for a rebuild if needed. But, I'll bet a six pack you can save it.

Don't get too disappointed if your repairs start nickle-and-diming you.
My engine was not seized by rust, but I still spent over $1200 on bits just getting it going. It won't be as cheap as you would hope. If this one is toast You may find another cheap parts engine to act as an organ donor. This is, of course, is going to occupy more garage space and invite glares of disapproval from any or all cohabitants of your home.

A better pic or closeup of the cylinders would help some.

Welcome,
Russ

[taylor]

Thank you everyone for the welcome and for your input so far.

Sony: Is your wife good enough to warrant the time you spend on her? I like my boat. It’s a ’73 Ericson 29. The hull, deck hardware, and rigging are all in great shape. I’m a dinghy sailor, and I bought this boat to learn as much as possible about maintaining a keelboat. Eventually, I want to do some bluewater cruising (maybe with this boat, maybe with another). In the meantime, spending a year rebuilding an old Atomic 4 sounds fun.

Dave and Russ: Thanks for the encouragement! I’ve got an outboard and I’m okay spending some time on this (and learning a lot about the atomic 4 on the way.) As far as an organ donor, I’m living aboard the boat as I restore it. It’s already become clear to me that I cannot have engine parts all over my very small living space for more than a couple of days, and I’m not sure how many engines my girlfriend will let me put in her backyard. One seems like it might already be pushing it….

Mo: I’ve got Marvel Mystery Oil soaking in the cylinders right now. Should I remove it to add the acetone/transmission fluid mix? How does one suck oil from a base pan? I imagine I’m not supposed to siphon by mouth…. : ) Do you mean that I should remove ALL of the oil, or that I should take out some so that I can see whether there is water emulsified in it?

I’ve been thinking that a ruptured manifold could’ve been the issue. I’ve been trying to get the manifold off so that I can see inside, but I can’t get at the bolts on the bottom while the engine is in the boat (I’ve got the upper three out already). I disconnected the hot exhaust, and the exhaust flange is also very corroded. I’ll get a pic up this evening. I’ll also post one of the cylinders (though they are full of Marvel Mystery Oil at the moment).

Also, the Marvel Mystery Oil was a pinkish color when I poured it in. It’s now got sort of a bluish haze in it. Does that mean anything to anyone?

And the valves should only move up and down as the engine turns over, right? (They don’t move when I push on them, but I assume I should not be able to move them up or down while the engine is seized.)

[romantic comedy]

Taylor, there are three studs that hold the manifold on, on my engine. It sounds like you have it disconnected.

What other bolts do you think hold it on?

[taylor]

There are two machine screws at the bottom which appear to connect the manifold to the carburetor. I can't see in that side very well though--tight quarters.

Is that not correct? Should I just start yanking at it?

[romantic comedy]

The manifold to carb bolts?

The carb is attached to the manifold and not to any other solid part of the engine or boat.. You will still have the choke and throttle linkage. At the air intake, you will have the spark arrester, and some crankcase ventilation tube.
The carb can stay attached to the manifold for removal.

So yes you can try to loosen the manifold. If you took the studs out then it will go in any direction. If the studs are still in, it will only move in that direction.

Also, there is the exhaust flange at one end of the manifold, usually the aft end. That will need to be free also.

[taylor]

Awesome! I really wanted to take off the carb, too. So this is convenient. (I was trying really hard to find bolts for it and failed. But with my head mashed against the wall I assumed I had just missed them.) The exhaust flange and raw water inlet hose are already off. Two of the studs are still in.

I'll give it a shot this evening.

[romantic comedy]

I hope a picture of my manifold is here.

You can just look at the online catalog here. Find a picture of the manifold that MMI sells. You will see the stud holes and carb flange.

[romantic comedy]

Here I think I got it now.

[taylor]

I see! It's all disconnected then. Just have to take the hoses off the carb.