A4 know nothing in trouble

[ckohler0529]

Hello everyone,

My name is Christopher and I am new to the forum. I just bought a 68 Tartan 27 with an A4. I am very new to engines and have been trying to educate myself so I can troubleshoot and perform maintenance on my own. Last weekend, I was removing the impeller.......let me rephrase that, I was attempting to remove the impeller. Access to the engine is very poor. I ended up removing most of the quarter berth paneling because the water pump is located just in front of the forward/reverse shift lever. Anyway, it is stuck. I have shredded the impeller trying to remove it. There simply isn't enough space/access for me to get my hands in there with a needle nose pliers, vice grip, regular pliers etc. to apply the necessary force to remove it. I can't imagine that an item that requires routine maintenance was intended to be this difficult to access and service. Do I need a special tool? Do I need to remove the water pump entirely? If that is the case, I can only see one of the two mounting bolts and I am afraid I will have the same space issue if I try to remove the pump. Any thoughts, ideas, criticisms would be much appreciated.

[Skywalker]

Good morning Chris,

I own T27 249 from 1966. Getting to the water pump is tough and the lower bolt is tricky. But I recommend you remove the pump and check it's overall condition. When re installing, it's worth buying the extended bolt from our host. I'm not a big guy, so I can manage to worm my way to it from the quarter berth.

I replaced my pump a couple of years ago with the updated version, which does not use the grease cup. I'm sure you are trying to keep a budget, but this is one upgrade that I think is worth it. FWC, good water flow and operating temp shouldn't be a worry.

You will get great advise and support here. I'm no mechanic and these guys have talked me down from the ledge on more than one occasion.

The T27 is a great boat. Sweet sailing, can handle some really nasty conditions, and the A4 powers her beautifully.

Good luck.

Skywalker

[JOHN COOKSON]

0529
The water pump needs to come off. No way out.
Disconnect the hoses to and from the pump. Remove the easy to get at bolt. Rotate the pump on the remaining bolt for better access to it.
Welcome to the forum. When you order the necessary parts include two items in your order: A copy of the Moyer manual and an extendo bolt for the lower water pump bolt.
Let us know if you hit anymore bumps in the road.

TRUE GRIT

Edit: If that is an oberdrofer pump you should be able to remove the shaft with the impeller on it by pulling it straight out.

[Marty Levenson]

I also have a Tartan 27. For sure take out the pump as John described. That will give you a chance to replace the impellor carefully, carefully install the faceplate gasket, clean up and refill the grease cup, and have a good look at the pump. I would buy the extra long bolt, and if money isn't too tight get the new Moyer pump....its a thing of beauty.

You might also consider joining the Tartan 27 yahoo group - very active and helpful. You might also have a good look at the shroud knees: our boats have a notorious issue there. Also, having just lost my centerboard, would advise an inspection of the pin and penant at your next haulout.

Happy miies!

[lat 64]

Welcome Christopher,

Not much about the pump I can add to what these gentlemen said except; yea, take it out to work on it at home on the bench. plus, get a clear understanding of the pump from research here.

I do agree, get the manual for this engine offered by our web host. Read it cover to cover. Im not dismissing you but it helps a lot with understanding the jargon and lingo we use on this forum. Also Bill the web guy has magically made many of the common acronyms display a balloon upon rollover that helps ie. RWC.

As I see it, there is a hierarchy to understanding of your new boat engine:

• firstly; is generic internal-combustion engine theory and terms.
• then more specifically; gasoline-spark engines,
• next is; side-valve engines like this one and older car and/or lawnmower engines,
• then specific info unique to this engine.

So sometimes a review of these concepts is nessesary. A sailor's best toolbox is their brain—fill it with quality tools.

Don't forget to pay attention to safety issues and devices on the marine gasoline engine. This is largely focused on the fact that a boat is a bowl to catch heavier-than-air gas fumes and contain them until a spark is presented to transmogrify you and your fine old vessel to it's constituent carbon molecules(smithereens).

Cheers,

Russ

[tenders]

On my engine the impeller is kept on the shaft with a circlip that would be darn near impossible to remove in close quarters. But the shaft just floats in the pump chamber, driven by a spinning pin inside the engine that fits into a slot at the end of the shaft. The shaft with the impeller attached SHOULD pretty much pull straight out. It is possible that the impeller got munged up to the extent that it is because you weren't pulling it straight out?

The edges of the slot on the shaft might have abraded the rubber seals as it came out - these should probably be replaced, or you'll be facing an infuriating slow oil and/or water leak from this inaccessible place. Those seals aren't cheap, the replacement process is a bit annoying, and my track record at replacing those seals is very spotty. By the time you're done with that you might come to the same conclusion that I did: the Moyer upgraded water pump is a very good idea.

[capnward]

Christopher,
Welcome to our world. I bet you're glad you came. So much good information in so little time. Prepare to be educated. These guys know their stuff.
I agree with all the above. Lack of access to that area is definitely a common problem. Removing the impeller should not require a lot of force, certainly not the amount of force used to tear it up. It looks terribly un-lubricated, like an Oberdorfer pump with no grease in the cup. If it is that hard to remove, you will need new seals around the shaft. Remove the pump. I suggest you replace it with the MMI 502 pump with long bolt, and spare o-rings and impellers. Even then, with your lack of access, next time you might remove the pump before replacing the impeller, to get a good look at it. Or remove the back plate and check out the impeller with a mirror. If the vanes on the impeller are permanently bent, it needs replacing. Usually every 200 hours. The longer lower bolt will help a lot with that. Get the rebuild kit too, to make repairs in the wilderness. What Fun!

[ckohler0529]

Thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I will definitely apply your suggestions and let you know how it turns out. I will be at the marina tomorrow, so I will plan on removing the water pump then.

[CalebD]

Another T27 owner here. Have owned her for 12+ years.

I remember dealing with the water pump early on in my ownership trials. Boy, that super awkward getting access to that area on my T27. I managed to get both bolts (top and hidden bottom bolt) off through sheer determination and WD 40 use. Then Don Moyer & Ken helped me through ordering what parts I needed.

Eventually I found a slightly used MMI 502 pump that I used to replace the old Oberdorfer pump with the grease cap fitting and was able to sell the Oberdorfer to another boater (many engines use these pumps).

The guys and gals on this forum know their stuff so ask any questions you might have here and you are assured to get answers.

Also, don't hesitate to call MMI parts or main phone #. You will speak to a human being who knows exactly what you are up against. Very comforting.

Hope to see you join our T27Owners group on yahoo groups.
CalebD
T27 #328

[ndutton]

Have any of you with impossible to reach pumps considered doing away with the flange pump and fitting the MMI pedestal pump driven off the PTO pulley? Sure would make life a lot easier. I mean Man, this is a regular maintenance item.
http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...ey=CFWK_04_267

[capnward]

Does anyone have a photo of the pedestal pump on the PTO pulley? I am having trouble visualizing how you can have that and the alternator on the same belt.

[sastanley]

Indigo did this on the accessory drive for boats like the C-30 that do not have any access to the flywheel. I can take one, my buddy on hull #355 has this configuration, but there is probably one on Indigo's site too.

[capnward]

Thanks, Shawn, there it is on the Indigo site. Instead of the pump being behind the distributor, it is next to it. A little easier to reach, but it still faces aft.

[ndutton]

The PTO is off the flywheel. It would give you access you never imagined.

[sastanley]

Neil, sorry, we crossed our terms. I thought the PTO meant the standard accessory drive ..I have gone back and corrected my previous post for future reference.

[ndutton]

Roger that Shawn. Admin, I propose adding Power Take Off to the glossary.

edit: Thanks Bill

[Administrator]

Done!

Bill

[ckohler0529]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who replied to my post about removal of the impeller from my water pump. I did manage to finally get the water pump off, and I will be replacing the hidden bolt with an extended bolt for easier access in the future. I have attached pictures of the impeller. As I said in my first post, I shredded it trying to pry it out. My next question is, does this impeller have a circlip? Since I don't know what a circlip is, I don't know what to look for. If this is a circlip, is there any way to remove it without the special tool? Thanks again everyone. It feels so much better to not have to feel my way through these issues by myself.

[ndutton]

Yep, circlip is visible in the picture, has two small holes. The proper tool is cheap, may as well get one. Many of us feel the circlip is optional anyway.

[DDO]

Hi! I just had to add on one more welcome after seeing the photo of the water pump's clip and recalling my puzzlement over that same view into my first A-4 project.
My Ranger 29 has been my baby for 10 years now so it was a long journey from newbie. My best advice is to buy any and every part from the Moyer site that might make your engine happy and your future projects easier. The updated water pump was my first Moyer purchase. I do take the old parts home and rebuild for the "experience", but do indulge liberally at the Moyer catalog.
These guys and gals have seen it all.
(My second bit of advice is always "rewire your engine". I could go on... but...).

[tenders]

The circlip is - believe it or not - the circular clip that holds the impeller onto the shaft. It fits into a groove on the shaft. You can pry it off with a screwdriver, but doing so is likely to warp it and a warped circlip is then very difficult to reinstall into the groove, flush and tight against the new impeller.

The circlip tool is like a set of very pointy needlenose pliers. It opens when you squeeze the handle. You put the points into the circlip holes and squeeze the circlip ends apart, and the open circlip comes off the shaft without warping. You might be able to make your own tool by grinding the tips of regular needlenose pliers, but as Neil mentions the proper tool is better and not very expensive.

So what was holding the shaft into the pump? Just friction from the seals?

[thatch]

The correct terminology for this tool is "Snap-ring pliers". Most of them can be conveted for use on external or internal rings. Harbor Freight has a pair that would be adaquate for about $5.
Tom