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  #26   IP: 71.38.68.214
Old 06-27-2017, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishguy View Post
So, if I'm reading this correctly, there are bolts on the valves that I can access through the spark plug holes and I should loosen and tighten them?
What you can access from the spark plug holes is the TOP of the valves.
You use this access to lightly tap them back down.
The weapon of choice here is an Allen wrench.


Quote:
Or am I screwed with 60-60-60-30 compression?
Can you give us a quick description of your compression test procedure?
(The steps you took for getting those readings?)
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Old 06-27-2017, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadnsky View Post
What you can access from the spark plug holes is the TOP of the valves.
You use this access to lightly tap them back down.
The weapon of choice here is an Allen wrench.




Can you give us a quick description of your compression test procedure?
(The steps you took for getting those readings?)
Thanks for the clarification on the valves, I'm definitely not a mechanic, but I'm not afraid to work on things...

To check compression(first time I've checked compression on anything)

I pulled out the spark plug

Threaded in and hand tightened the correct hose for the compression gauge, it seemed to seat well.

Then I cranked over the engine for approx 5-7 seconds until the gauge stopped climbing

Tried cranking again to see if any difference, there never was any

Made a note of the reading

Removed the hose and replaced the plug

I did this for all four and was getting power by using a jumper cable directly from a battery to solenoid, batteries are both new, but had been used to power the stereo that day.

Thanks!
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Old 06-27-2017, 11:27 AM
Marty Levenson Marty Levenson is offline
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test

Sounds like a good test: stereo won't drain batteries much.

If it were me, I would do a WET test next: put a teaspoon of MMO in each cylinder, wait ten minutes, and repeat the test you just did. If the numbers go up significantly the rings are the problem. If not, the valves are your next focus.
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Old 06-27-2017, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishguy View Post
...Removed the hose and replaced the plug
Don't worry about not being a mechanic. Most of us here are just like you.
I had virtually zero engine knowledge when I first started working on my A4 and joined this forum. Stay here and you'll get all of the knowledge you can use.

Only thing I'd suggest for the compression test is...
usually you would remove ALL four of the spark plugs rather than one at a time.
I don't think that would make such a big difference to drastically change your readings but one of the more knowledgable members (paging Dave Neptune) could comment with more expertise.

It does sound like you have a stuck valve or two though.

Here is the COMPRESSION TEST PROCEDURE that I use:

Test the engine while its warm, as you'll get different readings hot and cold.
Your readings will be higher on a hot engine, but if it passes cold it will pass hot.

1. Make sure water intake is shut off so you don't fill exhaust system with water which will then enter the cylinders.
(You're not actually going to run the engine during the test so it won't need any cooling)
2. Remove all spark plugs. Cover the holes with a rag.
3. Remove coil wire, disable fuel pump if electric (remove fuse or disconnect wire)
4. Open throttle to wide open and leave it there.
5. Screw tester into spark plug hole 1 and crank engine with starter for a few seconds.
You'll see the pressure on the gauge go up in steps and max out.
When it tops out, that's the reading.
6. Repeat on other cylinders.

If the readings are low or vary more than about 10% from one cylinder to the next, add a tablespoon of motor oil through the spark plug hole of the low cylinder(s).
If this increases the pressure significantly, it indicates worn rings or valve guides (the oil acts to seal the gap somewhat).
If it doesn't change it's more likely a valve that's sticking or not closing all the way.

Keep at it. We'll get you running.
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Old 06-27-2017, 01:05 PM
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Admin Bill-
I just read the other thread that FISHGUY had started earlier.
It has pics of his setup and some more history.

Do you think it'd help merging the two?
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Old 06-27-2017, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishguy View Post
So, if I'm reading this correctly, there are bolts on the valves that I can access through the spark plug holes and I should loosen and tighten them? Also I will find something that I can direct the MMO over to them as suggested by others.

Or am I screwed with 60-60-60-30 compression?
No. The "allen wrench" suggestion is just a way to press on the valves. The valves are a little offset from the spark pulg hole, and threading the short arm side of the allen wrench down the spark hole lets you reach them.

But the technique carries a risk. Anything more than a very gentle tapping runs the risk of bending the valve.

The 60-60-60-30 is encouraging. 60 is enough to run, and the A4 will start and run on three cylinders, so you have a shot at getting it running enough to loosen any stuck valves further. We'll keep working through the issues one by one till you get there.

As for the rebuilt starter, it is VERY important that it be rebuilt to marine specs so that it is "ignition proof". This essentially means that the proper gaskets need to be installed to prevent any gasoline fumes from coming into contact with a spark. An automotive shop will likely not have installed these gaskets.
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Old 06-27-2017, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadnsky View Post
Admin Bill-
I just read the other thread that FISHGUY had started earlier.
It has pics of his setup and some more history.

Do you think it'd help merging the two?
Done.

Tnx for the heads-up, Jerry.

Bill
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Old 06-27-2017, 07:07 PM
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Thanks Bill.
As always, such a great job you do maintaining the best forum on the interwebs!
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Old 06-27-2017, 09:07 PM
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fishguy...just to add to the others comments..I am a Honda engine guy. OHC/OHV...flat head motors with the valves pointing the same direction as the piston/rods and rising up and down from the oil pan were new to me. Shine a flashlight in the spark plug hole, and you should see the valves off to port...a carefully placed allen wrench can usually knock them loose if they are stuck...HOWEVER, I would only do this after confirming one does NOT move at all after several engine rotations and close observation during rotation. If you have 60 in 3 and 30 in 1, it will likely start and run and the valves are moving at least, some. Zero compression on a cylinder indicates a stuck valve. You could just have some crud or carbon build up that we need to get out of there later.

Keep moving along here...heed Ed's advice on the starter..ask the shop..if they look at you funny ask for your money back and go somewhere else that knows marine engines. Once you introduce fuel to the equation, this becomes a concern.

So, have we pulled the distributor cap yet and checked that out? I would work on that next to get the spark problem solved...step 2 of 3.

edit - don't forget to take pics..they help a lot with helping to determine condition.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:13 AM
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I have confidence in the shop I got it from, "Orange Engine and Marine" in Dana Point, CA, old school shop, they knew what I walked in with, without me saying a word... Have been getting stuff from them for a while. I appreciate that it is an important issue.

I have not opened up the distributor yet, I did replace the plugs and wires, haven't gone farther than checking for spark at the plugs and when I found nothing, I checked for spark from the coil and again found nothing. I'm thinking that there is a wiring issue as well, since I could only get the ignition to turn over the starter by using a jumper cable to the starter from a battery.

Hoping to visit the boats again this weekend...

Tim
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishguy View Post
...I did replace the plugs and wires...
Tim-
Just checking here...
Are you aware that the firing order (and plug wire order) is 1-2-FOUR-3?
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Old 06-28-2017, 11:35 AM
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fishguy..all good with the starter then..just checking. These simple precautions (like ignition protection) are the things that killed the gas motor in sailboats, mostly out of fear. If you follow the USCG requirements, gas powered boats are generally safe (provided all of them are followed/practiced.) When newbies come to the forum, we gotta feel ya out and make sure you understand those precautions/requirements.

After we confirm plug wires, etc. we'll get to actually making spark, setting the motor to TDC, etc. (do you have access to the flywheel/cover and the roll pin in the center?..that is the easiest way to set TDC and turn the motor over without using the starter.)

Another thing too, a lot of the stuff we are discussing here is in the Moyer Repair Manual...be sure to add that to your first parts order when you call Ken the parts guy down the road, if you don't have one..mine came with the boat.

There is also a lot of information in the Tech tips/FAQs area of the main Moyer site too.

Anyway, check the firing order as Jerry noted. it is such a common mistake, years and years ago this diagram was created, by user rigspelt I believe..

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Old 06-30-2017, 04:50 PM
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Tim/Fishguy,

So glad you found your way here. This is one of the friendliest forums I have found on the internet and not to belittle our T27Owners yahoo group (which is great for all things T27 specific) but the gang here has the most hands-on knowledge about everything Atomic 4 (regardless of boat model). This Moyer group can help you through a complete tear down and re-build of your engine if necessary and the knowledge base here is not limited to just gasoline engines but everything relating to boats (sail & power).
This is truly an impressive group of people If they can't help you then no one can.
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Old 07-06-2017, 01:29 AM
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I didn't get to spend much time on the engine this weekend, but I did look at a few things. I have a few questions. What are the circled items in the photo?<<<edit, this is not how the engine looks now, just is a picture that I took when I got the boat...Please scroll up for more current pictures>>>>> I know the ignition switch, but not the transformer looking device or the small rusty box...

I did remove the distributer cap, it's a points system now, I thought about changing to electronic right off the bat, but after looking at the ignition forums here I think I would be better off sticking with points for now. (I'm somewhat familiar with points as my other boat is powered by a 5.0 Cobra 302 Ford with points)

I think I have a bad ignition switch? I checked the voltage on the input terminal it was roughly 12volts until I turn the key then that goes to nothing and neither of the other two terminals read any voltage whatsoever regardless of the key position. The coil reads no voltage regardless of the key position(when jumping the starler directly from the battery, the coil reads approx 4volts on both terminals. None of this means anything to me, but it seems that when the key is switched to on and start that the other terminals should read something? So I think the switch might be bad? No spark at all out of the coil or any of the plugs. So this is my shopping cart now. Any suggestions? I figure start with new components, new ignition switch, the current choke cable is toast, so I know for sure that it needs replacing and a manual(boat came with a original "suggestions covering the operation and maintenance of your universal marine engine" I'm assuming the manual from Moyer will be more detailed?

Thanks for all of your help so far!
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Old 07-06-2017, 01:30 AM
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My shopping cart so far. Any suggestions?
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Old 07-06-2017, 02:05 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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You're on the right track in several respects.
(A) Hold off on the EI for now. Get the engine operating correctly with points then go to the EI. It will make troubleshooting easier.
(B) Keep at it until you can read 12 volts at coil + when the key is in the on position. Then:
(C) Pull the big wire out of the center of the distributor cap and hold it near the engine while you crank the engine and see if you can throw an arc to the engine. Or when the points are closed flick them open and let them snap closed. A 3/4 to one inch blue white spark is good. This way you will know for sure you are getting high voltage to the distributor.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 07-06-2017, 10:26 AM
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The small gadget circled in yellow is most likely a Cole-Hersee, low oil pressure alarm. If working correctly, it will buzz loudly when the ignition switch is turned on and then stop buzzing when the oil pressure builds enough to turn it off. This could be another indicator that your ignition switch is bad.
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Old 07-06-2017, 10:50 AM
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Tim-
One other suggestion for you...
Instead of just ordering the parts online, I'd encourage you to call Ken to place the order. (Just read him your list)
Ken will walk you thru the order AND may be able to make some suggestions/adjustments that we're not catching in a written forum.
Same price as online but with added service.
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Old 07-06-2017, 01:13 PM
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If you have shore power, the "transformer looking" device may be just that: an isolation transformer. They're used to help avoid galvanic corrosion in the presence of bad marina wiring.
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Old 07-06-2017, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
If you have shore power, the "transformer looking" device may be just that: an isolation transformer. They're used to help avoid galvanic corrosion in the presence of bad marina wiring.
Nope, no shore power yet. Here is a better picture of it..
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Old 07-06-2017, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadnsky View Post
Tim-
One other suggestion for you...
Instead of just ordering the parts online, I'd encourage you to call Ken to place the order. (Just read him your list)
Ken will walk you thru the order AND may be able to make some suggestions/adjustments that we're not catching in a written forum.
Same price as online but with added service.
+1 - This is the best advice so far...and you help put Ken's kids thru college, or help with his retirement fund..not sure which yet.!

Ken, just like everyone here and at Moyer, really knows his stuff and it is worth the talk.

Also, John C. is right too, don't do electronic ignition right now, and resist the urge to just throw parts at it.. A new set of points & condenser are cheaper if they need to be replaced, and then can be put in the parts bin as back up spares with low hours when you do switch to EI. Adding lots of new parts into the mix complicates the troubleshooting.
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:13 AM
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Anybody out there know what the transformer looking device is in the above pictures? If nobody has ever seen anything like it, I'm thinking I should abandon it and rewire the ignition system?

Thanks,

Tim
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:58 AM
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Fuel/water separator non-metal bowl?

Is that white cylindrical thing aft and to port of engine a fuel/water separator? If so, and if its bowl below the filter is plastic or glass (which it appears to be), it must be changed to metal for safety's sake and USCG rules for gasoline engines.

BTW I have a T27 too.

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Old 07-11-2017, 06:19 AM
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Can you provide more info on the "transformer looking device" in the above pictures?

1. The left side has at least 2 terminals. One, with the white wire, appears to be labeled "BATT.". Does the terminal with the red wire have a label?
2. Where does the red wire go and what size (gauge) is it (it looks to be about a #8)?
3. Where does the white wire go and what size (gauge) is it?
4. On the right side of the silver case are more wires. How many terminals are there, and how many wires on each terminal?
5. Are these terminals labeled?
6. Where do the wires go and what size (gauge) are they?


It is possible this is a battery charger. If so, the largish red/white wires on the left are the DC output and ultimately go to the battery + and - terminals (or engine block). The wires on the right would be 120vac and go to a proper AC distribution or shore power connection; or even an improper 2 or 3 prong plug just hanging somewhere to connect an extension cord. Even if you now don't have shore power, the boat may have had it in the past.

Last edited by tac; 07-11-2017 at 06:21 AM.
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Old 07-11-2017, 09:42 AM
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I will be at the boat again this weekend and will investigate this further, all I really remember about where the wires are running is that I believe the two white wires(fairly heavy gauge) both are running to the input on the ignition switch.
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