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  #1   IP: 208.255.152.227
Old 06-15-2005, 01:59 PM
LaBonneVie LaBonneVie is offline
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Clutch / Throttle Options?

All,

I'm looking into changing over to a dual lever (throttle/clutch) control in my 1982 Catalina 30. The engine is an A4 (obviously) M-5101 (1982 also? original?) #205178.

I'm not happy with the way my reversing gear is set, at almost maxed out, to get anything out of the reverse. My logic is that if I could engage the reversing gear completely and THEN apply throttle that should allow me to turn back the reversing gear to a more central setting. Sound wacky ? or would replacing the band around the reversing gear be a better approach?

So far the only model I've found was around $500-$600 which is too expensive for something with such a simple function, that may not even solve my problem.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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  #2   IP: 136.182.2.221
Old 06-15-2005, 03:10 PM
Jim Booth Jim Booth is offline
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Are you saying you have a dual function (throttle and shift) single lever control now? I haven't found one that will work and I think this is the reason why: Forward "gear" is really a clutch, reverse "gear" is really a brake. The distance you have to move the shift lever for forward and reverse depends on clutch and brake adjustments, not a fixed distance that real gears would move in a real transmission. You also have to apply significant force in each direction to engage the clutch or brake action. The normal single lever, dual function control "knows" the distance between forward and reverse, because it's a fixed distance in a normal transmission and it doesn't require much force to slide the gear shafts. The throttle is forced to idle between those limits and increases past those points. So I'm amazed that your system works at all if it's really a single lever, dual function control. By the way, I bought a new dual function, dual lever control off ebay that the guy claimed would work with the Atomic 4. It looks like a carbon copy of the teleflex morse control but is made in China. This is a totally useless control for the Atomic 4 also because it is too weak to transmit the forward clutch and reverse braking forces. It is a very nice looking, chrome plated brass control that cost just over $100 and would probably work fine with a real gear transmission. But why bother when you can get a dual function single lever control for that type transmission? Don has excellent instructions on how to adjust the reversing gear.
Jim
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  #3   IP: 38.118.53.88
Old 06-15-2005, 06:05 PM
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Don Moyer Don Moyer is offline
 
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Hi,

Here are the instructions that Jim Booth mentioned. Assuming that you're OK with your forward adjustment, you can skip directly to the reverse adjustment. If you have a pedestal mounted shifting lever, please read the additional instructions contained in that section, since that could be a big part of your problem.

Regards,

Don Moyer

FORWARD MODE ADJUSTING PROCEDURE

1) Place the cockpit shifting lever in neutral.

2) Recheck to be sure the reversing gear is in neutral by turning the prop shaft. The neutral position is at the point where the prop shaft turns most freely.

NOTE: If the forward clutch assembly is not in a good neutral position prior to adjustment, it will be very difficult to rotate the notched adjusting collar in step 6.

3) Remove the access plate on top of the reversing gear assembly.

4) Rotate the gear case cluster until the retaining pin of the adjusting collar is facing upward.

5) Loosen the retaining pin until the staked collar can be turned on its threads. It is not necessary to completely remove the retaining pin from its threads to turn the adjusting collar.

6) Turning the adjusting collar clockwise (as you would be facing the engine from the rear) will tighten the clutch disks when in forward. As a frame of reference, one notch on the adjusting collar make a large difference and is usually sufficient to prevent slippage.

7) Retighten the retaining pin.

CAUTION: It is very important that the end of the retaining pin extends into one of the notches on the adjusting collar before final tightening. If the end of the pin presses on the collar itself (between notches), or if the pin is simply over-tightened, it is extremely easy to break the cast iron pressure plate.

8) Place the cockpit lever in and out of the forward detent several times to insure a proper "feel". A solid detent should be felt while going in and out of forward, but the adjustment should not be so tight as to cause any concern that the ship's cable and levers may be overstressed.

NOTE: Moving the forward adjusting collar one notch makes a rather profound difference in the force required to get the clutch assembly into and out of the forward detent. In some cases (particularly in pedestal mounted shifting levers) one setting can result in more force than might be desired, while the very next notch looser results in some slippage of the clutch assembly at high power settings. In the very latest engines (circa 1979 - 1981), Universal installed forward clutch adjustment collars with notches closer together to provide more control when adjusting the forward clutch assembly. You can check the difference in the two collars in our online catalog at moyermarine.com, product number: OREV_05_306.

9) If, after readjusting the forward clutch assembly, the neutral position of the shifting lever in the cockpit is in an awkward location, you can adjust the cable shackle at the engine, or cockpit shifting lever, until the cockpit lever is in a more natural neutral location.

REVERSE MODE ADJUSTING PROCEDURE

1) When the forward mode adjustment is correct, recheck the reverse mode for proper adjustment. There should be a well defined neutral range when coming out of the forward detent, and reverse mode should be felt comfortably before the shifting lever in the cockpit reaches the limits of its rearward travel.

NOTE: There is no detent in the reverse mode.

2) If the shifting lever in the cockpit reaches the limits of its travel before reverse mode is securely established, turn the 3/4" hex-headed nut of the reversing brake band clockwise.

3) If the reverse mode is reached too soon, and/or the neutral zone is so small that it is difficult to find a spot where the prop is not turning (one way or the other), turn the adjusting nut counterclockwise.

NOTE: It is not necessary to remove the retaining spring in order to turn the nut on the reversing band adjusting bolt.

FOR PEDESTAL MOUNTED SHIFTING LEVERS:

By way of background, pedestal mounted shifting systems typically have somewhat less cable travel than those which are mounted on the side of the cockpit. This makes them very prone to having problems associated with being able to reach both forward and reverse and still have a reasonable neutral zone.

It's very important that the cable assembly is adjusted so that you're able to engage the forward detent near the end of the travel in the forward direction. This adjustment is necessary so that you will have sufficient travel in the rearward direction to accommodate reverse, and still have a reasonable neutral zone between forward and reverse.
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Old 06-16-2005, 07:55 AM
LaBonneVie LaBonneVie is offline
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Jim,
I do have a single lever, dual function, control mounted on the port side of the cockpit (I forget the manufacturer). It has a very stiff feel to it but, it does work. But to work and to work well are obviously two completely different animals.

Don,
I have all of your videos/books and love/need them all. My wife on the other hand doesn't seem to find them as interesting as I do. Not sure why that is though...

I'm somewhat familiar with the adjusting procedures but have found for this single lever to work that I needed to have the reversing gear adjusted to nearly the last turn on the 3/4 hex nut in order to have the brake band reversing bar engage completely. If it's not set this tight then the engine will rev a bit too high before the brake band reversing bar can completely engage. I've tried to set the forward adjustment to allow the detent to engage early in the travel movement of the shift lever so that there is plenty of room to power up/down but, I'm going to try your suggestion and make adjustments so the forward detent engages later in the travel of the shifter. Hopefully that will do the trick. It certainly seems like it will. Do you feel that a dual lever may be a better setup since the forward detent or the reversing bar could be completely engaged before any throttle is engaged? It seems like the way to go to me but I'm certainly no expert.

Guys, thank you both for your help. A light bulb has certainly come on and I'm anxious to get back down to the boat and try out these adjustments.

Rob
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  #5   IP: 38.118.53.88
Old 06-16-2005, 08:45 AM
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Rob,

I have absolutely no experience with any of the controls which you're describing. I do understand (at least in principle) Jim's earlier assessment regarding the difficulty, if not the impossibility, of combining the control of the throttle with either of the clutch functions of our reversing gear within a single lever, and I would have to defer to his judgment.

Having said all that, I certainly wish you well in your next attempt to somehow balance out the clutch adjustments and throttle control within your system.

Don
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  #6   IP: 208.255.152.227
Old 06-16-2005, 02:56 PM
LaBonneVie LaBonneVie is offline
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Don,

Thanks for the help. You guys have both given me enough reasons to go ahead and swap out the single lever control, that I now have, and install a double.

One last question, I know that you also had a Catalina 30 w/A4, did your boat have a single or double lever control? I'm asking because I've been in a few Cat30's and all have the single lever (some had A4's). I can't be the only person running an A4 with a single lever control system...

Thanks again for all the help.
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  #7   IP: 38.118.53.88
Old 06-16-2005, 05:07 PM
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We may be having a problem with terminology. The standard configuration for the Atomic 4 is a simple single lever for shifting between forward and reverse. The throttle is frequently also co-located in the center of the same assembly for convenience, but the cables themselves are totally separate, with one (heavy) cable going to the shifting lever on the engine and the other cable going to the throttle.

Don
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Old 06-17-2005, 07:51 AM
LaBonneVie LaBonneVie is offline
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Don,

I apologize for not describing my system very well.

It is as you described. A single lever with two independent cables.

The root of my question was to find out if a dedicated throttle lever (and cable) and a completely separate transmission lever (and cable) was a more "correct" setup for the Atomic. My reasoning is that the reversing function in the Atomic seems to be more like a drum brake in a car (as Jim described). So... if I want to apply the reverse/brake why would I rev up (throttle) the motor simultaneously? My current system doesn't seem to make much sense since as I move the control lever to the rear it will begin to accelerate the motor and THEN begin to apply the reversing brake band.

I believe you guys have answered that question.

The quest for a two lever control will continue. Something similar to the MJB SERIES SAILBOAT CONTROL may work. but at $450 I just thought that someone may know of a system that WILL work with the Atomic and it's need to have additional leverage to engage/hold the transmission in "gear" AND cost less then the MJB.

thanks again,
Rob

Last edited by LaBonneVie; 06-17-2005 at 08:24 AM.
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  #9   IP: 129.188.33.221
Old 06-17-2005, 03:38 PM
Jim Booth Jim Booth is offline
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p.s. transmission option?

Rob,
The control I bought on ebay looks like a clone of the Morse MJB. I was shocked by the Morse price too. We cruised from Waukegan to Milwaukee last summer and my shift lever was slipping on the shaft. It's quite a thrill when you think you're about to stop the boat and the reverse lever hits the bottom of the cockpit! So I thought I'd just walk over the hill to West Marine and buy a new one. Yikes! They didn't have one in stock anyway. I don't know how the Morse is built so I can't say if it's rugged enough to work with the A4 gear. I saw one link on the web that wasn't very complimentary to it. I do believe this is the correct control arrangement for the A4. One heavy duty lever for shifting and a second independent lever for throttle. It's convenient that they are colinear in one control but I've thought it might also work to have two separate controls. You can buy just the throttle control on ebay for a lot less money and there are no strength issues. If your shifter lever is heavy duty enough to handle the A4 forward/reverse (clutch/brake)functions, maybe you can mount the throttle control nearby to still make it reasonably convenient to use. That would totally decouple the throttle so it wouldn't move when you shift. I need to add a brake to my throttle mechanism because it does move when I shift, tending to rev the engine going into forward. That makes it hard to control boat speed by shifting in and out of gear at idle. I was working on mine just a couple weekends ago and saw that the aluminum clamp on my shift lever is cracking more. I'm thinking of having a machinist make new parts since I haven't been able to find a used one. It's an obsolete system, so we're kind of stuck. Let me know if you find something.

Jim

p.s. At the risk of being excommunicated from the Atomic 4 community, are there any alternative transmissions that can be adapted to an Atomic 4? Doubtful for sure, but just thought I'd ask. It would be nice to be able to use a regular single lever, dual function control.

Last edited by Jim Booth; 06-21-2005 at 05:26 PM. Reason: Add another question
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:46 PM
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Delphis Delphis is offline
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MJB Controls...for less dollars!

Rob,

I believe I have the unit that Jim described, the MJB knock off. I am installing it this evening as I recently broke my shift control lever and upon closer inspection noticed the backing plate for the controls was broken long ago and jury rigged. I am now down to the last piece, brass circle with four screws and the backing plate on the other side of the bulkhead/ cockpit and cannot for the life of me figure out how it comes off? I have twisted, banged, cursed, prayed, etc...

Any help would be appreciated from others that read this, thanks and Cheers!

Rob, back to my point, the place I bought my MJB knock off has another unit if you want me to get it and ship it? it is $199 and comes with all the hardware...

Let me know, I couldn't see spending double that either!
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Old 01-19-2010, 05:50 PM
bgilbert bgilbert is offline
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MJB Controls...for less dollars!

Can either of you provide the name of the knock off brand?

Regards,

Brody
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Old 01-22-2010, 03:46 PM
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domagami domagami is offline
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Forward/Transmission/Gear Control & Cable Replacement?

Must be the season for this...

I too am interested in fixing the problem I'm having with keeping the shift holding in forward or reverse. I think I need a new cable or connection or entire throttle or... not sure.

And not sure if this forum is the right place either. Anyone offer any experience for us?

'68 Pearson Wanderer, A4, often it will slip out of gear while engaged. Mostly in forward. (At least I think so - can anyone really justify going backward for more than 5 seconds anyway?)

It seems that when I move the direct lever - while in the engine compartment - it will sort of 'drop' into gear rather definitively, and stay there. It's just hard to steer while on my knees in the galley bent over the plugs.

Anyway, with that added condition I don't think I need the fix mentioned in the "Forward Mode Adjusting Procedure". I mean, it WILL work nicely if you use the lever directly from the engine, and at various RPM too.

Which leads me to the cable and/or level in the cockpit. I'm guessing I just don't have enough 'carry' or movement in the shift/cable I have now. (Sorry to be so remedial, but I'm trying to provide enough detail that will generate a response.)

This problem has been going on for a while now. I removed the shift and took it apart - fascinating mess inside. It worked a bit better but didn't really resolve this issue. Just don't know what else to do - or if the A4 forum is the right audience.

Would photos help? Is 40 years too much for a control like this? Is it time to replace? With what? (And therefore, back to the question in the previous post.)

Many thanks,

MD
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Old 01-22-2010, 04:40 PM
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Don Moyer Don Moyer is offline
 
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MD,

I believe we have enough information to agree with you that your problem is in the ship's cable system and not in your engine's reversing gear adjustment.

The most important advise we can give you at this point (other than to continue trying to discover and correct the problem within your cable system) is to resist the urge to somehow hold the cockpit lever in forward with the reversing gear itself not fully engaged in the forward latching mode. Holding the lever "against" forward but not "engaged" in forward puts a constant side load on the ball bearing of the operating cone which will greatly shorten its useful life span. Operating cones (and their bearings) are increasingly difficult for us to keep in stock, so it behooves us to take good care of them.

Don
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Old 01-22-2010, 08:07 PM
baileyem baileyem is offline
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Talking Shifting

Domagami, I have a 66 pearsonn coaster--fixed keel version of the wanderer--and had a problem with my shifter that sounds like the one you are having. The carrier-sheath for the shift cable must be imobile (fastened to a bulkhead or something solid) so the cable end can achieve its maximum travel and exert enough pressure on the shift lever to shift a properly adjusted forward gear.
My cable appeared to work, but did not 'carry' far enough. The "engine" end of the carrier-sheath was no longer fastened solidly to the hull. Of course, that end of the carrier sheath was under the gas tank and almost impossible to get at. It only took 3 different attempts, a lot of loud mumbling, and about a quart of blood to figure it out and fix it. But it does work very well now.
I won't be able to get any picture of the situation until April at the earliest. In the meantime, you can call me at 715-453-3793 for details, if I haven't been clear enough.

Good Luck,
Mike

1966 Pearson Coaster, Nimue
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:31 AM
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domagami domagami is offline
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Loose shift mechanism/cable

Thank you Don and Mike for your quick replies.

Don, I had read in other posts your caution about holding the shift in place - thus my current attention to this issue. (To me) it was not an obvious problem, so I'm glad to have stumbled over this in reading about those with similar issues.

Mike, thanks very much for the offer. I think your description - and Don's - were clear and I think you are right, I just need to further immobilize that backing plate and/or the cable sheath. It's possible they both are providing just enough play to prevent the needed movement in the cable.

715-453.... I thought that prefix was familiar. Tomahawk? "April at earliest" is right! Although the near-freezing temperature will keep the blood loss to a minimum....

Thanks again and best to all,

MD
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Old 01-25-2010, 11:23 AM
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Marian Claire Marian Claire is offline
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I had a similar problem a few years ago. The cable ends were attached firmly but the sheath had ruptured allowing the cable to bulge out. A new cable was my only recourse. Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 01-26-2010, 07:04 PM
Jim Booth Jim Booth is offline
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delphis View Post
Rob,

I believe I have the unit that Jim described, the MJB knock off. , I couldn't see spending double that either!

Well this thread brings back bad old memories . I assume you got yours installed and had some time to use it. I think mine "lasted" about one and a half seasons before the inner pieces rubbed the plating off and rusted. It was a mess. Make sure you keep it greased. I eventually found a used original control on ebay. This one is all bronze instead of aluminum. I don't know how old it is but it still works like it should.

Catalinadirect dot com offers the heavy duty all bronze controls for less than I remember from West Marine. I just looked and it's $449. They also have an atomic 4 retrofit kit for pedestal mount for $374. Maybe it could be adapted for bulkhead mount, but probably not worth the work. It has stainless steel handles in an aluminum body.

Good luck with yours, and let us know how it works out as time goes by.

Jim
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