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  #1   IP: 98.207.152.199
Old 11-24-2013, 02:51 PM
sousou sousou is offline
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Electric Fuel Pump Issues

Greetings!

On Saturday when I was motoring in the channel leaving my marina the motor suddenly died. I cranked it again and it ran for about 2-3 seconds and promptly died. At this point I raised the sailed and sailed back to my slip. Surprisingly it was smoother than some of my motoring landings!

Engine behavior sounded very similar to forgetting to turn the gas on...Doh! So i narrowed the problem down to a fuel related issue.

Checking the system, I noticed that the fuse (10amp) to the oil pressure safety switch // fuel pump was blown. I replaced with a fresh fuse, cranked her up and 3-4 seconds later the fuse died and motor died after another few seconds. To me this sounds like an electrical problem at either the OPSS or the Fuel Pump, but I'm thinking it's more likely to be a Fuel Pump problem.

Anyways, I'd like to jump the OPSS to verify whether it's causing any problems, but I'm unsure of whether to connect my gators. I've read a few other post but I really need it spelled out for me :-)

Existing Setup: Coil -> Wire ->10AMP Fuse ->wire ->OPSS in -> OPSS out -> Fuel Pump.
Fuel pump is bolted to the motor.

Where do I connect the gators to avoid doing something really. really. stupid?

By the way: I fixed my overheating problem back in September. I monkey'ed around the exhaust manifold and all 90 degree connectors. Lots of nasty stuff was removed. This reduced operating temp to 150-160, even at high RPM. For fresh water this would've been OK, but since I'm in salt i bought the bypass kit and the added pressure reduced temp down to 130-140 depending RPM. Nice!
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Old 11-24-2013, 07:13 PM
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Al Schober Al Schober is offline
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Put the jumper across the OPSS. It's a normally open switch, closed by oil pressure. The jumper will make it act like it's closed. If the problem goes away, replace the switch.
Personally, I think it's the pump. A bad switch would stop the engine but it wouldn't blow the fuse. A bad pump could blow the fuse.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:43 PM
sousou sousou is offline
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Appreciate the reply.

I jumped the OPSS, cranked, started, fuse blew after 2-3 seconds and engine died a few seconds later. Seems like something in the fuel pump is blowing the fuse.

Going to order a second one, but before I install are there any tests that I can run to ensure I don't immediately fry the new pump?
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:51 PM
sousou sousou is offline
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By the way, I noticed that my coil was making a funny squealing sound as well...

Could that have something to do with it? Video with sound included.

http://youtu.be/4py4cZpRNUM
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:59 PM
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Wow!
What a squeeky noise. From a coil? Something is very wrong with this...
I have never heard a coil make that noise.

Seems to me that you must have a fault in your ignition wiring as you keep blowing fuses.

Bypassing the OPSS switch will not fix whatever short or fault that exists in your wiring. Neither will burning out more fuses.

Just one more reason why I love my mechanical fuel pump: no wiring!
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:19 AM
sousou sousou is offline
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I'm sure mechanical has it's advantages, but these are the cards I've been dealt and I'm trying to play my hand the best i can

Nothing has changed on the wiring side, so I'm wondering if it's something the fuel pump causing it to blow or in the coil. I'm trying to figure out how to isolate the source of the short...

This is the closest diagnosis ive been able to track down: http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1890

Last edited by sousou; 11-25-2013 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 11-25-2013, 06:50 AM
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it's probably the pump

I experienced everything you describe, minus the noise. The pump was bad. I installed a mechanical pump. My electric pump was only 2 years old.
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Old 11-25-2013, 10:42 AM
sousou sousou is offline
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Interesting. The coil just starting acting up. Maybe from all the cranking?


Already ordered the electric, so we'll see how soon I regret it. . Previous one was installed by PO in 2005. If I can get 8 years out of it I'll be happy!
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:26 AM
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I'm a big doubter in "coincidences", so when two things happen together I'm hard-pressed not to believe that they're related.

The squealing coil is a mystery. The sound reminds me of the squeal emitted by some old-style tube-type video monitors.

Or, (a long shot), it could be a "cooked" coil, whth the squeal being caused by escaping pressure in the coil???

But what could cause both the pump and the coil to act up at the same time? The only thing I could come up with is the voltage. If your alternator or regulator is bad, it could me putting 14 volts or more onto the DC bus. This could account for both the pump drawing too much current, and the coil acting up.

This would also make the cabin lights burn too bright. Check the system voltage. It's easy, and will rule this in or out.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:38 AM
sousou sousou is offline
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Yes -- I'm not a fan of coincidences -- especially when it could burn up another FP!

I found these two posts:

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...t=filled+coils
and
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/ar...hp/t-5748.html

But do you know if there are any diagrams of what/where I should be metering? My comfort level with electrical is low, so I'm trying to dummy proof this as much as possible.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:42 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Then I Am Happy

Quote:
Originally Posted by sousou View Post
Interesting. The coil just starting acting up. Maybe from all the cranking?Already ordered the electric, so we'll see how soon I regret it. . Previous one was installed by PO in 2005. If I can get 8 years out of it I'll be happy!
8 years? My boat was built in 1979. The A4 still has the original electric fuel pump. Seems to still be going strong.
Power up the fuel pump through the fuse straight from the battery. Disconnect the wire from coil - and power up the coil. See if the noise goes away. If it does touch the wire back to coil - and see if the noise starts again.
My gut feeling is there is more going on than has been sorted out to date ie are the fuel pump burning out and the noise related? (per ED in the post above)

TRUE GRIT

Edit: If there is a wire from the starter that is cojoined to the lead to the fuel pump at the OPSS disconnct it at the starter and pull it back around the engine. If there is such a wire it could be causing problems.

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 11-25-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:16 PM
sousou sousou is offline
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There is no wire going from starter to fuel pump. Only connection is: coil ->fuse -> OPSS ->Pump

When I powered straight from the coil to the fuel pump, the fuel pump did not "tick," but I have not tested straight from the battery.

Is it safe to connect the wire to the positive terminal of the battery ->10AMP fuse ->Fuel Pump?
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:31 PM
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I would go for 5 or 3 amps for that fuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sousou View Post
There is no wire going from starter to fuel pump. Only connection is: coil ->fuse -> OPSS ->Pump

When I powered straight from the coil to the fuel pump, the fuel pump did not "tick," but I have not tested straight from the battery.

Is it safe to connect the wire to the positive terminal of the battery ->10AMP fuse ->Fuel Pump?
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Old 11-25-2013, 01:07 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sousou View Post
There is no wire going from starter to fuel pump. Only connection is: coil ->fuse -> OPSS ->Pump
When I powered straight from the coil to the fuel pump, the fuel pump did not "tick," but I have not tested straight from the battery.
Is it safe to connect the wire to the positive terminal of the battery ->10AMP fuse ->Fuel Pump?
The idea is to isolate the two circuits (fuel pump & coil) so you can start to figure out what is going on.
So power the pump by taking the lead to the fuel pump off the coil and connect it to another hot spot.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 11-25-2013, 08:13 PM
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"my coil was making a funny squealing sound as well... "

saw the video. That sound is very like a high speed 'make and break' circuit. Is it really in the coil? Could it be points? Get a stethoscope maybe to locate noise?
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:15 PM
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Talking

The further we go down the coil "rabbit hole" the more I am beginning to appreciate the influence that devices can have on voltage. The electric fuel pump definitely reduces available voltage at coil+ if it is connected there. My solution has been to create independent circuits making sure that coil+ has it's own dedicated path back to the most stable voltage source available.
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:33 PM
sousou sousou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalcyonS View Post
"my coil was making a funny squealing sound as well... "

saw the video. That sound is very like a high speed 'make and break' circuit. Is it really in the coil? Could it be points? Get a stethoscope maybe to locate noise?
Ido not know with certainty that it was the coil. Unfortunately my aiming was poor on the camera so I didn't even zero in on the coil. I'm not going to have a chance to make it back to boat until Thursday morning.
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Old 11-26-2013, 12:17 AM
sousou sousou is offline
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For those that are interested, I managed to upload a video of crank/shutdown.

You'll notice that this time it did NOT making the squealing noise.

http://youtu.be/oRQkzCe-lX0
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Old 11-26-2013, 01:02 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sousou View Post
You'll notice that this time it did NOT making the squealing noise.
Maybe the points\EI were open when the engine quit in the video.

I'm almost certain you have a choke\to rich issue. Try pushing the choke in - that is open - as soon as the engine starts. Try playing the choke in different positions as soon as the engine starts. Also confirm that the choke is working correctly.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 11-26-2013, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
I'm almost certain you have a choke\to rich issue.

TRUE GRIT
Really appreciate your help and knowledge here!

Curious as to what leads you down the choke\too rich path. When the problem first manifested itself, I was motoring out of the marina after an extended warm up (under load) and ~5 minutes of motoring down the fairway. The motor died all at once as it did in the video. That hasn't been my experience in the past with over-choking.

I've got a list of items to trouble shoot this week and I'll add this to the top!
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  #21   IP: 161.213.49.150
Old 11-27-2013, 12:38 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Today's Bet

Sounds like you have crud in the carburetor. It probably happened during the motor trip when the engine died. Now you can't get it to idle. The fuel related cause of a poor idle are too rich or too lean of a mixture. I know you are too rich rather than too lean because the engine starts so easy. If the mixture was too lean you would have a hard to no start condition.

Anyway:
Before you take the carb apart and clean it out try these two "adjustments":
Proper function of the choke - previously mentioned
Turn the idle mixture needle in until it is lightly seated then back it out 1 1/2 turns.

Best of luck.

TRUE GRIT

PS: What happened with the blown fuse issue?
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Old 11-27-2013, 04:25 PM
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Will take a look at those adjustments if the Fuel Pump is functioning correctly. The Mixture is backed out 1 & 3/4 quarters turns. I used to have trouble idling in gear after the motor was warm, but I haven't had that issue in several months.

Tracking down the blown fuse & fuel pump issue are projects for tomorrow morning! Sorry if it wasn't clear!

Rough outline of steps tomorrow:
  • Run Fuel Pump Directly off battery (through 5amp fuse). Going to do this to verify whether the FP is completely shot.
  • Check voltage into coil and resistance. Want to verify that I don't have something that is frying my coil and subsquently my fuel pump.
  • Replace inline fuel filter.
  • Assuming I don't have any electrical issues and the previous pump is dead, I'm going to install the new electric fuel pump
  • Crank Motor
  • Depending on how it runs at crank, I'll look at adjusting the mixture at the carb.
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Old 11-29-2013, 12:18 AM
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Few comments:

I would trade 3 inches of cabinet space under my sink of my E27 for 3 extra inches in my motor compartment! What a pain!

I clearly didn't think through my steps below as checking the voltage requires a running engine. This is how I spent my morning:
  • Confirmed resistance in coil
  • Tested Fuel Pump (Busted)
  • Attempted to remove fuel pump
  • Cursed
  • Removed fuel pump
  • Replaced inline filter
  • Attempted to attach fuel pump
  • Cursed
  • Cursed
  • Attach fuel pump
  • Reconnected all the fuel lines & wires
  • Started Motor

Started like a champ & ran like a dream for 10 minute before I had to pack up and head to Thanksgiving dinner. Going t give it a more thorough test tomorrow and will report back on voltage into coil.

I'll also need to fiddle with the choke as opening and closing no longer has any noticeable effect.

Appreciate all the tips and suggestions. I definitely have some pointers for folks installing new pumps in the future!
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  #24   IP: 174.58.84.3
Old 11-29-2013, 06:19 PM
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You did not throw any wrenches?
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Old 12-01-2013, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
The electric fuel pump definitely reduces available voltage at coil+ if it is connected there.
Only if the ignition system wiring is too small. That's the definition of voltage drop.
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