Accessory Drive Failure?

[Ajax]

Patient: Late model A-4, Pearson 30.

Over the last few months, I've developed a squealing from the water pump area.

My Oberdorfer water pump had the grease cup, and I kept turning it to no avail. I inherited one of the "grease gun" kits with the boat, so I installed it, and pumped the water pump full of grease. Again, no effect.

In another recent thread, John suggested that it might be the accessory drive. Here is what I found today:

1. The alternator had slipped a bit, and the belt was so loose, that it was like a wild banjo string, nearly chafing a hole in the adjacent cooling hose that leads to the thermostat. The belt has a very weird wear pattern from running too loose, so I'll replace it tomorrow.

2. I removed the belt, and restarted the engine to see if the noise was the belt itself, or the alternator. Even with the belt and alternator out of the equation, the noise remained the same.

3. I performed the "leverage" trick with a 1X2" piece of wood against the accessory drive pulley, but failed to change the pattern or pitch of the squealing at all. I was unable to be certain by ear, which end (pump or pulley) the noise was coming from.

4. Frustrated, I called Ken at Moyer Marine parts dept. He advised that I perform the "stethoscope" trick with a breaker bar or screwdriver. Getting my head near enough to touch a screwdriver that could also touch the acc. drive and water pump was a real trick, but I managed to hear the squeal through the screwdriver if I touched the very end of the housing where the shaft exits , on the pulley side. I couldn't hear it at all (through the screwdriver) on the water pump side. Also for kicks, I touched the base of the distributor (because it's in the same general area) and did not hear the squeal.

Ken says that he's never heard a water pump squeal, so between his experience, and my diagnostic routine, I'm hopeful that we've isolated the problem to the accessory drive. I really don't have the funds right now to blindly through money at the engine.

Any additional thoughts are appreciated.

[sastanley]

Ajax, good diagnostics. The accessory drive runs the alt. The engine will run for a long time with no alternator. You only risk not being able to start the engine if you kill the batteries with other accessories or running the engine too long. I was pleasantly surprised how well the engine ran with no belt...but I had two strong batteries and only a 20 min. trip. I never had to consider the 2nd battery it was so efficient...but I constantly monitored my in-house voltmeter to make sure I didn't need sails to get back to the dock.

Not that it helps you, but I think my accessory drive is failing too..but, the corroded manifold stud took precedence.

Pick & choose your battles..it is January. Save $50 for a couple months and send Moyer your old acc. drive for a rebuilt. That is my plan but mine doesn't squeal..just starting to grind like a noisy wheel bearing.

Also..consider the Moyer acc. drive oil splash mod to see if that helps provide oil to the possibly oil starved front bearing. I'd check ahead of time with Ken to see if Moyer Marine will accept a modified housing not done by Moyer if you were to exchange it later.

http://www.moyermarine.com/access_repair.htm

[Ajax]

I think it's too late to try to save this drive with the oil mod. I'm not even fooling around, I'm just going to buy a new drive and mail my old one to Ken.

FWIW, the drive had always sounded a little "growly", but I thought read somewhere on the forum that they often sound like this, so I just monitored it, without much worry.

[Sony2000]

Have you grabbed, pulled, and pushed the pulley, to see if there is any movement in the shaft to its housing?
If you pump SAE 30 under the center of the pulley, to drip onto the shaft of the assessory pump, does the squeeling go away?
If yes,no,yes,yes, then do the modification.

[Ajax]

Have you grabbed, pulled, and pushed the pulley, to see if there is any movement in the shaft to its housing?
If you pump SAE 30 under the center of the pulley, to drip onto the shaft of the assessory pump, does the squeeling go away?
If yes,no,yes,yes, then do the modification.

Yes, I have grabbed the pulley and the shaft does have some slop. Not anything crazy, but according to Ken, it should have no lateral motion, and be completely silent.

I have not put SAE 30 under the center of the pulley. I was lucky to investigate this at all, thanks to the warm spike in temperature. I have re-winterized the engine because temperatures are going to plunge to sub-freezing again tomorrow.

I think the drive is past the point where self-modifying it would save it. Maybe if I'd caught it earlier.

Edit: Question- Should I expect some oil to spill out when I remove the drive, or does it all drain back into the engine?

[JOHN COOKSON]

To summarize so far: A loose accessory drive pulley is causing squealing and abnormal belt wear? Is this the idea?

Ajax: You're going to buy a new belt anyway. Even though it flies in the face of the evidence so far buy the new belt, clean up the pulleys, install the new belt and see where you are at. Maybe the pulley just needs to be tightened on the accessory drive. I'm going to an A4 area that I'm not familar with here - just an idea.

Also a question for Ajax: Do you hear the squeal when the engine is both in and out of gear?

TRUE GRIT

[Ajax]

To summarize so far: A loose accessory drive pulley is causing squealing and abnormal belt wear? Is this the idea?

Ajax: You're going to buy a new belt anyway. Even though it flies in the face of the evidence so far buy the new belt, clean up the pulleys, install the new belt and see where you are at. Maybe the pulley just needs to be tightened on the accessory drive. I'm going to an A4 area that I'm not familar with here - just an idea.

Also a question for Ajax: Do you hear the squeal when the engine is both in and out of gear?

TRUE GRIT

Umm no, that's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that when I grab the pulley, the SHAFT has some lateral movement consistent with a worn front bearing. The pully is mounted on the shaft just fine. I suspect that the abnormal belt wear was caused by being way too loose and maybe exacerbated by the lateral movements of the output (pulley) shaft.

Yes, the squeal is present and remains the same whether the transmission is in neutral, forward or reverse. The ONLY thing that changes the pitch is the speed of the engine itself when I adjust the throttle.

The squeal transmits through a screwdriver (stethoscope) when placed at the end of the housing where the shaft exits.

[Ajax]

Cripes.

I just observed that the dang distributor is driven (and inside) the accessory drive. That means I need to mark the dizzy and the rotor position before I start taking things apart.

I hate futzing around with timing.

[ILikeRust]

Cripes.

I just observed that the dang distributor is driven (and inside) the accessory drive. That means I need to mark the dizzy and the rotor position before I start taking things apart.

I hate futzing around with timing.

I have to say there's no need to be intimidated or annoyed by it, really. A couple minutes ruminating on the matter will reveal that it's not as complicated as some would seem to want to believe.

When I did my engine overhaul, I merrily yanked the distributor out with zero regard to the position of the distributor or the rotor. Because I knew I could figure it out again.

Now, of course, as those who have been paying attention (Neil) know, I did manage to get my timing 180 degrees out upon rebuild, but that was not because I had the distro aligned incorrectly, but because I thought I was on the compression stroke on cylinder 1 when I actually wasn't, because I wasn't paying close enough attention to what the valves were doing, and I was tired when I was doing it.

As soon as I realized my error, it took me literally about 3-5 minutes to change it and the engine fired right up instantly.

Anyhow, take some pics and make a few marks with a Sharpie pen or something to keep track of where everything is pointing right now. And make sure you don't crank the engine at all when you've got that stuff disassembled.

[roadnsky]

Cripes.

I just observed that the dang distributor is driven (and inside) the accessory drive. That means I need to mark the dizzy and the rotor position before I start taking things apart.

I hate futzing around with timing.

Yes the Dizzy is driven by the Accessory Drive.
But as Bill said, don't let that discourage you.
If you mark the shaft at TDC before removing it, it'll go right back in that same way.

[Ajax]

I can handle it, it's just a little annoying is all.

Thanks very much for the pictures, that's a great help. Is the last photo, the hole in the accessory drive that the dizzy goes into?

I think I prefer to remove mine and send it to MM before ordering the new one. I'll have to make time to get it done.

[sastanley]

You could pull it as is, and as long as you get the distributor right back in the same place, it'll be fine. I'd take the 5 minutes to try and get it to TDC...then..I use a sharpie to make an alignment mark on the distributor & the neck it rests on.. Pull the cap and on the lip of the distributor housing, make a mark where the center of the rotor is pointing...

Provided you don't move the engine (the TDC shift is only in case something else gets AFU'ed in the process), and re-align your two marks, it would be like it never even happened.

You know all this..I am just reinforcing it.

[roadnsky]

...Thanks very much for the pictures, that's a great help. Is the last photo, the hole in the accessory drive that the dizzy goes into?.

Yes. I wish I had one that is a bit clearer, but you can just see the gearing in the left of the frame.

[Ajax]

Well, I was completely wrong. Apparently I suck at the "screwdriver stethoscope" diagnosis tool.

Today was nearly 50 and sunny, so I decided to try to remove the accessory drive to send it in as a core, and purchase a replacement.

The first thing I did, was carefully mark the distributor position, and take a few photos with the dizzy cap off, to help me put things back together correctly. I then removed the distributor. As I held it in my hands, I thought "As long as I have the dizzy out, I should give it a good cleaning and lubrication." Then, I idly spun the shaft: Screeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Uh, what?

I oiled the timing advance fly weights, and greased the cam lobe that the points rub up against, put it all back together and spun it. Nothing but blessed silence. I re-installed it, and started the engine. Again, nothing but the silence of proper operation. Not even a hint of a squeal.

I'm happy that I fixed the problem for free, but I'm aggravated that I couldn't isolate the sound with the screwdriver method. I did touch the dizzy with the screwdriver, but that squeal did NOT transmit through the dizzy shaft or housing. It was loudest when I touched the forward end of the accessory drive.

I guess the lesson is: The accessory drive, distributor and water pump are all mere inches from each other, so isolating a problem by sound, can be tricky.

[roadnsky]

Good lesson. AND it was free.
AND thanks for reporting back to help the rest of us.