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  #26   IP: 104.129.196.207
Old 11-04-2019, 10:17 PM
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so now... what do I have

So now the questions to the specialists!! What do we have here? What version of the engine / head / pump etc... do I have? I think I have the late head (due to the form of the thermostat housing), but appart from that, I have no idea of what I am looking at... is the block old? is the exhaust manifld old?

Of course it is obvious that we have a LOT of rust, and that the spark plug went AWOL, and was teh reason of my engine refusing to run under such poor maintenance by, maybe its PO, but surely by the one of the last 4 years, me. Critics are welcome...

On the scope of what to do... what would you recommend, appart from changing the head (or repairing it), painting it etc...? . I want to limit the work to the minimum: this boat sails on the Narragansett bay not on blue waters.
Thank you !!

Note: the dark picture is the inside of the exhaust manifold
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Old 11-04-2019, 10:18 PM
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Old 11-05-2019, 10:09 AM
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I may have missed this - does this engine pass the pressure test? If so, I am not sure how - or if - one can tell if the block is 10% rusted through or 99.9999%.
The engine looks late model to me.
Re the ladder -what a GREAT idea. I wish I had thought of that before we hung the engine from a tree branch, backed my wife's hatchback up to it, and just about when she showed up to see why we had her car the engine tilted forward and dumped 2 quarts of oil into her car She was not pleased
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Old 11-05-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Re the ladder -what a GREAT idea. I wish I had thought of that before we hung the engine from a tree branch, backed my wife's hatchback up to it, and just about when she showed up to see why we had her car the engine tilted forward and dumped 2 quarts of oil into her car She was not pleased

This is a great story... a couple years after the facts!!

Regarding the pressure test: none done, and obviously would have failed it after Labor Day when I realized there was a leak around that spark plug.
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Old 11-05-2019, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Surcouf View Post

This is a great story... a couple years after the facts!!

Regarding the pressure test: none done, and obviously would have failed it after Labor Day when I realized there was a leak around that spark plug.
Well that was after we lowered the engine into the dinghy, went from the mooring to the dock, and only then realized we had neglected step B. We borrowed some lumber from a dock redecking project and made a ramp to pull the engine up on the dock and then used some round wood to pyramid-builder style roll it to the tree. It was quite a day!
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Old 11-05-2019, 10:42 AM
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Well that was after we lowered the engine into the dinghy, went from the mooring to the dock, and only then realized we had neglected step B. We borrowed some lumber from a dock redecking project and made a ramp to pull the engine up on the dock and then used some round wood to pyramid-builder style roll it to the tree. It was quite a day!
I would never dared to lower the beast into a dinghy... pretty impressive (risky) to do it, I tip my hat to your courage
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Old 11-05-2019, 01:22 PM
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I would never dared to lower the beast into a dinghy... pretty impressive (risky) to do it, I tip my hat to your courage
My last swap I was at the dock, but we used the crane and a float instead of hauling it down the pier.
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Old 11-05-2019, 01:25 PM
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My last swap I was at the dock, but we used the crane and a float instead of hauling it down the pier.
I guess the Coasties would have a hard time considering an A4 as an acceptable PFD... great pic!!
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Old 11-05-2019, 02:57 PM
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I guess the Coasties would have a hard time considering an A4 as an acceptable PFD... great pic!!
Best part was the old rusty engine went through the marina 20 minutes prior and then everyone sees this one go by and we get comments like "Wow, how did you fix it so fast" LOL
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  #35   IP: 96.233.156.105
Old 11-05-2019, 11:24 PM
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Fun part

So could not resist and went to spend a couple hours on the engine in the garage...

Long story short:
- head: all head bolts are out, 5 studs came with.
- Exhaust manifold: 3/3 bolts out, 1 stud out
- spark plugs: 2 out «*clean*», 2 broken

so having own a old SAAB (rust bucket in Northeast) and a Peugeot (back in France) means that I also have all metrics tools. VERY useful to remove the rusty bolts: 11/16 too large? Switch down to 17mm. Rounded again? Switch to 5/8 (and a good hammer to put it on). Between PB Blaster (a lot over the last 4 hours), impact gun and long break bars, I was happily surprised to able to remove either all head bolts or studs. I was expecting much worse (maybe this is coming)... according to MM manual, winter is coming ....

Al was probably right on his first comment: after having brushed most of the head, it may be fine. Rust is a lot of flaking paint. I may be lucky here ...

i attach a few pictures, and after my questions
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:38 PM
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Questions

My questions:
- question 1: the engine stamps seems to be 031578 // 295369. Could that mean that engine is from 1978? I wonder if that engine is the original one? Not that I think that a «*matching number*» Catalina would have value suddenly, but I would like the story of repairing and installing back in the engine bay the original block...
- question 2: all 3 bolts are removed from the exhaust manifold, including one stud. But that b***** barely moves... even after 30 minutes of sweating / swearing / prying etc... it maybe moves 1/32*of an inch, maximum. Any trick / advice on how to remove the cranky exhaust manifold?
- question 3: and before anybody tells me «*if MM Manual tells so, just do it*»: should studs be removed first, right now, before the head?
- Question 4: stupid one, but this is my first time: should the two studs on the water thermostat housing also be removed ?

Thank you in advance for your expert opinion and answers!!!

So good progress to my mundane eyes, sad it is too late to open a beer.... but clearly in the mood for it. I know there are days ahead that will not be like this...
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Last edited by Surcouf; 11-06-2019 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:34 AM
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Just a general comment: The lower ends of the studs protrude into the water jacket. They generally corrode off flush, giving you an indirect way to evaluate the remaining thickness of the water jacket walls. Three threads showing is considered to be the minimum. Less than that, and you will have problems with the studs pulling out while trying to torque them to spec. Looks like you have a good 5 threads showing, suggesting that you're in good shape

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- question 1: the engine stamps seems to be 031578 // 295369. Could that mean that engine is from 1978?
Yes, the block was cast on March 15, 1978. The engine could have been assembled later than that. Serial number is 295369

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- question 3: and before anybody tells me «*if MM Manual tells so, just do it*»: should studs be removed first, right now, before the head?
People do it both ways. It's easier to get the head off once the studs are out, but its easier to get the studs loose by gripping them in the center when the head is off. My preference is to get the head off first. YMMV

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- Question 4: stupid one, but this is my first time: should the two studs on the water thermostat housing also be removed ?
Yes, they are also head studs.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:43 AM
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So good progress to my mundane eyes, sad it is too late to open a beer....
Too late for beer?!
NEVER!
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:57 AM
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Sercouf,

As I read through this thread, I'm not clear what your intention is here. Are you looking to do the absolute minimum just to get the engine running again, then put it back in the boat? Or are you looking to assure that all is well with the engine and it will run reliably for years to come? The difference between these two scenarios is whether or not you plow into the block the check out crank, journals, pistons, valves etc.. I went through this decision process a year and a half ago (see my rebuild thread) and ended up doing a full rebuild. For me, I just couldn't see going through the hassle of engine removal, partial repair, and re-installation with an engine that's still of questionable reliability. In my case, the full rebuild, including machine shop work and many parts from Moyer, ended up right around $1400, and the rebuild itself was quite simple (with several calls to Ken at Moyer of course).

If you're interested, I kept a detailed journal of the rebuild and I'd be happy to send that to you.

Good luck with your project!
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  #40   IP: 165.225.38.128
Old 11-06-2019, 11:03 AM
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Too late for beer?!
NEVER!


I tend to agree... it would have been a Friday or Saturday, it would have been a different story. But I guess that if I can find my Stud Extractor today, I will tonight bring the beer to the garage BEFORE starting, as a preventive measure
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Old 11-06-2019, 11:19 AM
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Sercouf,

As I read through this thread, I'm not clear what your intention is here. Are you looking to do the absolute minimum just to get the engine running again, then put it back in the boat? Or are you looking to assure that all is well with the engine and it will run reliably for years to come? The difference between these two scenarios is whether or not you plow into the block the check out crank, journals, pistons, valves etc.. I went through this decision process a year and a half ago (see my rebuild thread) and ended up doing a full rebuild. For me, I just couldn't see going through the hassle of engine removal, partial repair, and re-installation with an engine that's still of questionable reliability. In my case, the full rebuild, including machine shop work and many parts from Moyer, ended up right around $1400, and the rebuild itself was quite simple (with several calls to Ken at Moyer of course).

If you're interested, I kept a detailed journal of the rebuild and I'd be happy to send that to you.

Good luck with your project!

you are spot on. My issue is that I am likely to sell / give away my boat next Spring. I am stupidly attached to this boat and ready to invest a lot of my own sweat and time , and a little dough to put back a "boat-original", good running, rust-prevented engine in this C27. But I am having a hard time coming to the terms in throwing an additional 1500$ into my hole-in-the-water that I will not enjoy anymore after next June. And what you are pointing your finger to is going to materialize very quickly. This is what my base scope is for now in my head:
- remove head, all studs etc...
- remove side plate, clean inside
- remove valve plate clean all gunk etc..
- remove oil pan, inspect + clean
- carburetor and water pump inspection + rebuilt
- the most time consuming: treat all rust and re-paint block

Not in my scope for now, but could change quickly (maybe just because I love to tear things appart that I do not now yet how to re-assemble)
- Should I get there and not remove the valves? Would be a shame not to change the springs and clean valves head now that everything is exposed
- any kind of inspection / work on reverse gear (this ones scares me way more than anything else, it is irrational)
- any kind of oil gasket around shafts?
- all the rest I do not even suspect yet
This is where the expert opinions will come very handy....
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Old 11-06-2019, 11:42 AM
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Understood Sercouf. Just a couple things I'd suggest adding to your list:

Set up a simple engine stand with necessary hoses, bucket, battery etc. to be able to run and troubleshoot the engine in your garage (don't want to get it all the way back in the boat to find out something's still off kilter).

Muriatic acid soak and flush of all internal water passages (cleans out internal rust and scale, pretty simple to do once the engine is running on the stand above).
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Old 11-06-2019, 11:43 AM
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Oh, and if you do need another head, let me know. I've got two in pretty good shape, be happy to send one to you.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:01 PM
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And of course... 2 had to wreck the party mood
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Old 11-07-2019, 12:40 AM
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And Moses opened the seas.... Book of JB chapter A4

So... first my new best friend: The Craftsman Stud Extractor. I was really impressed! After spending another 20 minutes trying to get the exhaust manifold out, I decided to use that tool to try to get the stud out; there was only 3-4 threads out. And the extractor was able to grab that, and take the stud out. And the manifold went out easily once maintained only by the remaining stud. OK. next.

Fuel pump, OK. Coil, one broken screw in the block. Damn. Igniter was next; we stopped before breaking that screw, doused with PB Blaster, will come back to it tomorrow.

And next was the block. Yesterday, this morning and coming back to work, I carefully sprayed each stud with PB Blaster, over-filling the gaps between the studs and the head. So now, no more excuse?
I started to use the stud extractor on the head studs. It worked very well: this 16$ tool NEVER slipped on any studs. I was extremely surprised when the first 8 came out like a dream.... and I was starting to dream too!! But this is no «*Miracle on A4*» and a first one snapped. I should have stopped before breaking it, but I was getting over confident. The very last one broke too, but we were really over-forcing it too. This last one (the corner one on the thermostat m) was super tight so no PB Blaster could go down...
So a very good tool all in all. I was very impressed. I have no MIG welder to weld a bolt and try to remove them at this point, but I think it would have been useless: both studs broke below the extractor level, and without heating with a torch (impossible with the head on), I do not think it would have helped much.

And now the fun pry-pry, tap-tap. My first. Took us 2 hours. I am VERY confident it would have lasted 30 minutes if it was not for these 2 studs, that were super-super tight on the head. I am not sure if I am the only one... but if «*tap-tap, pry-pry*» sounds nearly romantic, boarder line fine mechanic art, what occurred in my garage tonight was not pretty!! A complete improvisation that saw a multitude of different instruments and tools be part of a wild, angry, creative and disorganized ballet whose only goal was to take the f****** head of this block!!!!! A large number of screwdrivers, putty knife, painter scrappers, a chisel, à brick, wood logs, hammers, automobile plastic tools etc... were successively used, modified, broken, until the head finally decided it had me pay the proper respect to its stubbornness.

If I had to make one comment to the Moyer Marine manual, it is that they should remember that some people (like me) who use it may be completely dumb, and forget that somewhere in the middle of that head gasket you are trying to wack/pry etc... there is AT LEAST one valve that stands on the way!!! And so special care should be given not to go too far in with your tools...

So head is now out. There was absolutely NO WAY this could have taken place in the engine bay, and doing it inside the boat would have been a nightmare. Very glad I dropped that initial idea!!

Anyway, pictures, and bedtime! Questions tomorrow!
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Old 11-10-2019, 01:58 PM
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Hello ,

Are these the original pistons?
Thank you?
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:19 PM
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So today:

- clean all water system: coat hanger, wires, drill bits, pressure washer, garden hose, detergent etc... everything has been used to try to clean between cylinders, all water passages within the block etc... while trying at the same time not put water in the cylinders, in the valves etc... I tried to take as much as I could from the bottom of the block, that had at least 1 inch of gooey mud, pieces of rust etc.. praying that the pressure washer or the coat hanger would not go through the block!
- put plastic bags on the top of the engine and the distributor, and brush all block with detergent, than pressure wash the whole block. Much better!
- then preparation for oil pan-sump removal. This is not in MM manual as a specific procedure if you do not remove the gear box. But pretty evident, at least in theory: remove all bolts on the pan itself, 3 lower ones on the shaft flange, 4 on the flywheel housing that face the front of the engine (front is the gear side), and 2 on the flywheel housing hidden below the sump. That is the theory; but here I discovered that rust behaves like a liquid that deposited all over the block at the bottom of the block below the water plate. I had to chisel it, to be able to separate the sump and the block. Crazy!!! And of course 2 bolts broke, resisted after the use of the stud extractor and will have to be drilled.
- everything looked fine in that sump. Filter was not too dirty, not much crap at the bottom of the sump.

Everything has been sprayed with Mistery Oil to avoid corrosion.

I will prepare a list of questions, among the issues is the distributor (not sure it can be removed), the valves (what should I do with them?) etc .... so a good 6 hours of work for 2 people just for that.
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Old 11-11-2019, 01:37 PM
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Questions on block damages

See below a few pics on what looks like either damages, previous repairs, or simple casting details absolutely normal.

First and last pic are the same from a damaged thread on s stud (the corner one below the thermostat housing; as a reminder all studs came out with 5+ threads left)

Question for you guys: anything alarming or abnormal?
All that was photographed BEFORE cleaning..

Thank you !!!
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Old 11-12-2019, 02:06 PM
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Distributor

So distributor: the bottom of the distributor, just before it "enters" the "auxiliary casing" suffered a lot from corrosion. The "collar on the distributor body, that is supposed to be held in place by the distributor hold down bracket, has just disappeared...

Past 4 years I never had any ignition issues. My intention was to treat all corrosion issues of course, but not to remove the bracket or the distributor itself. Any comment on that? bad idea?

Thank you !!!!
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Old 11-12-2019, 02:10 PM
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OK that looks very ugly I know...

has anybody seen anything like this and still been able to solve the corrosion (and its root cause), treat the block, paint it, and put it back in operation?
All this was already chiseled away, and will undergo POR-15 treatment soon.
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