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  #51   IP: 12.189.199.68
Old 07-03-2018, 07:27 AM
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Talking

This reminds me of a story about my neighbors Catalina 30 and a "reputable" mechanic who worked on her A4 woes...

She reached out to me knowing I knew about the engine from previous conversations...granted, I knew nothing about this engine before I joined this forum but have learned a decent amount enough to know basics and troubleshoot items when things go bad...I knew enough to have a non-starting A4 with reliability issues be a strong reliable asset of my previous boat...

After a close to $1000 bill later, she still had issues with the engine...I went to check it our and after noticing weird noises coming from water pump, I had determined that her pump needed an overhaul or replacement...

She bought a shiny new pump from Moyer after I told her which one to get and I replaced it for her free of charge...super easy work...

Her engine has now been working better than ever and pump is keeping the engine cool...

I then explained some basics of things she should do, things she should invest on, spare parts, etc...

Moral of the story, some of these "professionals" who work on boats will not know everything...It's amazing they did not notice the screeching sound coming from the pump and the very little water coming out the exhaust...or if they did, failed to tell the owner...why? I have no idea why...what I do know is that some of these guys you know as reputable may grow and have other employees who know very little or lack basic work ethics and honesty.

But if I was in their position as a mechanic, I would tell and warn the owners of other things to be aware of...not just say things are fixed, $1000 bill later, walk away...

who knows how much they would have charged her for a new pump and how much time they said it took...When I looked at her bill, I told her to fight it as there is no way they would have spent the amount of time they did on the things they claimed they did...if so, I assume they spent a ton of that time doing research online as they most likely had no clue where to start...

But as others have said here, I strongly believe it's a good idea to learn some basics about this engine. Learning basics will not only get you out of future trouble when it happens, but also be a key factor in preventing future problems as you will know the key things to keep these engines chugging along as the wonderful simple little machines they are capable of being.
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Last edited by southcoasting; 07-03-2018 at 07:29 AM.
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  #52   IP: 137.200.32.6
Old 07-03-2018, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Before I elaborate on my previous opinions/comments, is there budget remaining to get this boat operating reliably for you?
This ^
Do you have:
$10,000
$5,000
$500
$50
to spend on this operation?
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  #53   IP: 137.200.32.6
Old 07-03-2018, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEM555 View Post
So! The engine is still quite sick and I am still having issues. It starts running on three cylinders until the fourth "kicks in". I suspect water is entering the engine somehow but haven't got a clue what to do now.
See question about money.
Assuming you want to tackle this, first thing is a plug check. Take photos of all 4 spark plugs (out of the engine!) and note where they came from, i.e. 1,2,3, and 4. While the plugs are out, do a compression check.
Post these results and we have a starting point.
If you have the cash, buy a Moyer reman and forget about fixing the old one.
No worries if you don't, we have all been there.
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  #54   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 07-03-2018, 09:56 AM
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My finance inquiry was headed down a different path. I've been the outlier in this thread but as it progresses I'm becoming more entrenched in my convictions. GEM has been candid about his skills and desires, wants to enjoy his boat without becoming a mechanic to do so. I get it, we all want trouble free boating.

The forum advice has followed the forum strengths, a DIY attitude that strives to help and teach. It has centered however on the engine itself and not the ancillary systems critical to proper engine operation such as fuel, electrical and exhaust systems. Given that GEM has a Catalina 30 (I think I read that somewhere along the way) that has a marginal exhaust system in terms of keeping water out of the engine and that water incursion is a recurring problem, there is much to be learned for GEM to get up to speed on keeping his boat going. Lord knows the professional mechanics he's had the misfortune of meeting aren't even up to speed. GEM could install a new block MMI engine and unless he understands and maintains the ancillary systems he'll be right back in the same predicament. The same goes for a diesel repower. It has, as an example pertinent to GEM's water incursion issues, the same marginal exhaust (by design).

More importantly GEM has made it clear he'd much rather enjoy the use of his boat without being a motorhead. To that end it is my respectful opinion that GEM and any internal combustion engine are not a good mix. That is not a comment on what I think he can and cannot do but rather accepting his own self-assessment as he has sincerely described it to us. I said it before, it's not our way but I respect that it is his.

Keeping an eye on the goal of enjoying the boat and circling back to the finance question, it's clear to me that if there were ever a candidate for an electric drive, GEM may be it. It's not maintenance free but does away with engine, fuel, ignition, exhaust and cooling water systems, eliminating much of what he finds prohibitively challenging. The only concern I can think of is if the range fits his style of boating.
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  #55   IP: 137.103.82.194
Old 07-03-2018, 11:16 AM
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GEM is in a bit of a fix. The season in Maine is short, there is no "low budget creek" you can just anchor a boat in 24/7/365 up there, and now he has a dead old boat that isn't exactly going to have buyers fighting over it.
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  #56   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 07-03-2018, 11:19 AM
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He may choose to invest this season in a repower to enjoy next season. After buying my boat I spent two full years (not just seasons) refitting her before I could really cast off.

I dunno, he has big decisions to make.

edit: more questions for you GEM
Is the engine the only boat system you find daunting? What about steering (if pedestal equipped), bilge pump, electrical in general, rigging, spars, sails, winches, keel attachment, thru-hulls & valves, sanitation (holding tank), potable water system, window and deck leaks, electronics, structural woodwork, etc.? A boat of your size is a complicated machine and it all requires management and maintenance. I'm asking because I want you to have a realistic look at what lies ahead, what boat ownership is really like.

Specific question: do you have the Catalina retrofit lower chainplates, the U bolt style? This is a critical safety upgrade, the entire rig and mast are at risk without it.
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Last edited by ndutton; 07-03-2018 at 12:07 PM.
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  #57   IP: 71.178.83.216
Old 07-05-2018, 11:57 PM
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GEM55, Just keep the info flowing to us..we'll help the best we can with what you are willing to put out.

I do like Neil's poster..my version of that does not have the bikini girl in it!
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:58 AM
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Hi A4 guys,

Just want to say - I just joined and I read through this topic, and I was very impressed. I bought a '77 Pearson28 last year and I have an Atomic 4 and I have been working on it - i get discouraged at times. But having read this topic really gave me a lot of confidence and encouragement. Thanks to all who have posted!

-John
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  #59   IP: 72.194.219.196
Old 07-17-2018, 10:21 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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John
Do you have a copy of the Moyer manual?
Give the forum a shout when you have questions or run into problems. You are not alone out there.

TRUE GRIT
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  #60   IP: 174.192.2.216
Old 07-17-2018, 11:03 AM
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Hi John,

Thanks so much for writing. I do have the Moyer book. It is great. I also have WEST System guide to repairing fiberglass boats - two critical manuals for care of my P28. I definately have a couple questions for which I will create a new thread soon. Best of luck to GEM, amen to short season and no cheap creek to stash the boat in Maine!

Thanks!
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  #61   IP: 137.200.0.112
Old 07-19-2018, 07:50 AM
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Is GEM555 still out there?
I hope he gets his boat going. I totally get the issue, if you are new to boating you might think it is like having a car and a mechanic is ready to fix it right then and there and it will be good for the next 100,000 miles.
We once had a magneto go out on an airplane and we got it fixed the next morning for a couple hours labor and parts and were on our way. My wife thought the $120 labor charge was high and told her if it was a boat it would cost twice as much AND we would be stuck here for a week or two waiting for someone to have time to look at it.
(also if it was a boat we wouldn't have the OTHER ignition system to switch to and would have been stuck right where the first one quit)
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Old 07-21-2018, 07:53 PM
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Latest update

So I now have an an A4 that will start but will only run on 3 cylinders. One of the valves is sticking. Can I continue to run it this way?
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Old 07-21-2018, 08:48 PM
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It has been done, but let us try unsticking it.
There are a few easy tricks to try. My first idea was always to run the engine and slowly pour MMO in the carb.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:14 PM
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Upon reviving my A4, it too had a stuck valve. Treatment with MMO directly into the cylinder and the vibration of the engine running, freed it up.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:17 PM
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Have MMO in the gas already. Can smell burning oil in thrvexcust.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:19 PM
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[QUOTE=GEM555;113542]Have MMO in the gas already. Can smell burning oil in the exhaust. The engine is still rapping on 3 cylinders. At least it runs. Can I use it on 3 cylinders?

Last edited by GEM555; 07-21-2018 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 07-22-2018, 08:15 AM
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When I had two that were badly stuck and MMO wouldn't get to them, I opened the valve side cover and sprayed Sea Foam (spray version) on the stems and into the guides. 15 seconds later, everything was free and working. Now I keep MMO in both the fuel and oil to keep it all clean.
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  #68   IP: 172.58.27.57
Old 07-22-2018, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEM555 View Post
Have MMO in the gas already. Can smell burning oil in the exhaust.
The guys are talking about a direct infusion of MMO in the offending cylinder rather than a 1% concentration in the fuel.
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  #69   IP: 138.207.172.243
Old 07-22-2018, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GEM555 View Post
Have MMO in the gas already. Can smell burning oil in the exhaust. The engine is still rapping on 3 cylinders. At least it runs. Can I use it on 3 cylinders?
Can you? I suppose you could, but why would you if you could unstick the valve easily?

The advice to treat to the gas (and each cylinder) with MMO is great advice.

You state that the engine is running on three cylinders with a sticky valve in the offending cylinder. I'm going to make an assumption that you know which cylinder is not firing and I'm going to assume you know it's a stuck valve due to zero compression and not because of no spark (from a bad plug or wiring.) If you know the cylinder, I would recommend the "Allen wrench" technique to seat the stuck the valve.

1. Remove the spark plug from the offending cylinder.

2. Take an Allen wrench (one of those "L-shaped" steel hex wrenches that you get with your IKEA furniture) and angle in the cylinder hole. Use a long allen wrench (or don't drop a short one into the cylinder!)

3. Find the top of the valve with the bottom side of the allen wrench (this is a little like Luke Skywalker "using the force" because you can't see the valves as they are off to the side of the cylnder towards the carb under the head. It's a bit of a "moment of zen" meets Ty Webb from Caddyshack as you visualize in your head where the valves are).[youtube]0FT_nJ69axs[/youtube]

4. Press down on the valve. Be the valve.

Sometimes this is enough to get the valve to properly seat.
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Last edited by TomG; 07-22-2018 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 07-22-2018, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
The guys are talking about a direct infusion of MMO in the offending cylinder rather than a 1% concentration in the fuel.
Yes exactly! Putting it in the gas is a preventative, but unlikely to cure an already stuck valve.
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  #71   IP: 75.147.56.13
Old 09-10-2018, 05:26 PM
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Follow-up...

Ok, I haven't posted in a while but I thought I'd get back to everyone with the "story so far".

I took a lash at the engine in June, after getting a manual and quickly realized I was unable to make any real progress. I did finally find a mechanic who is familiar with the engine. We spent the summer repeatedly removing the head (sticky valves - we tried Sea Foam to free up the valves. No Joy). Replaced the exhaust manifold, a few of the valves (with new and used plus guides) and put an electronic ignition in. After all of that, with (many) hundreds spent, about the only thing I can rely on is when I get to the boat Friday night the engine will be dead.

For example, I pre-scheduled the mechanic the Friday before Labor Day - when I got there Thursday night, yep! The engine would not start. 1.5 hours later, I had the boat to use over the weekend (only the forth time the entire summer). Each time I use the engine I close the raw water before I shut it down and FOG the engine. MMO in the gas. But once again, last Friday, Sept 7th - dead. No start. No way, no how, no sir. We have no idea WHAT the problem is now - bad gas? (this would be the same tank I've used all summer - we have a spin on water-fuel separator and I've replaced it just on the chance). Who knows?

So that's my A4 experience this season. Got maybe 1 hour of use out of the engine since June 1st. Sailed the boat 4 times.

Guys there HAS to be a better answer than this. Understand now why there isn't a marina within 35 miles north or south of me that will touch the thing. Does anyone want this boat?

Last edited by GEM555; 09-10-2018 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 09-11-2018, 01:36 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Settle Down

Let's get back to basics. What does the engine need to start and run?
Fuel and spark delivered to the cylinders and compression. A properly functioning choke and correctly adjusted timing.

Fuel: Do the cylinders smell of unburned fuel after a period of no start cranking?
Is fuel collecting in the throat of the carburetor after a period of no start cranking? Is the fuel clean (no water in it)?
Spark: Hold a screw driver in a spark plug boot and see if you can jump an arc to a spark plug while cranking. Are the wires on the spark plugs in the correct firing order?
Compression: Do a compression test.
Choke: Is the choke closing all the way?
Timing:Is the rotor pointing to number 1 wire position on the distributor when #1 is at TDC compression.
Let us know which system is not working so we can get it fixed.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:53 AM
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It is possible that engine just needs replacing.
It is also possible it is a $5 repair you all have not found yet.
You would have been well served to live-blog your repair efforts on this thread. The collective knowledge base here far exceeds almost any other engine you could name.
Let us start from the very basic premise that the engine needs to have compression and not have water in the cylinders for it to have a chance of functioning.
Did you pressure test the block? Results?
Did you pressure test the manifold? Results?
Why did you buy a new manifold? What was wrong with the last one?
Did you do a compression test? Results?
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:57 AM
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Am I correct in thinking you take the cylinder head off and work on the valves every time you go out?
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Let's get back to basics. What does the engine need to start and run?

Fuel and spark delivered to the cylinders and compression. A properly functioning choke and correctly adjusted timing.
>>>Engine ran fine 5 short days previously. Typically will not start after sitting idle for more than one/two days.

Fuel: Do the cylinders smell of unburned fuel after a period of no start cranking?
>>>How to check? I have to rely on a mechanic for that.

Is fuel collecting in the throat of the carburetor after a period of no start cranking? Is the fuel clean (no water in it)?
>>>How to check? I have to rely on a mechanic for that.

Spark: Hold a screw driver in a spark plug boot and see if you can jump an arc to a spark plug while cranking. Are the wires on the spark plugs in the correct firing order?
>>>Yes. I know that stuff is correct, because the engine ran fine 5 days ago.

Compression: Do a compression test.
>>>I have to rely on a mechanic for that.

Choke: Is the choke closing all the way?
>>>Yes.

Timing:Is the rotor pointing to number 1 wire position on the distributor when #1 is at TDC compression.
>>>I have to rely on a mechanic for that. Just out of curiosity, how in God's name can you see into the engine to determine where anything "is" at any given point in the combustion cycle?

Let us know which system is not working so we can get it fixed.

TRUE GRIT
See my answers above. Thanks!
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