C&C 27 Mark 1 Masthead Help!

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  • L Thomas
    Frequent Contributor
    • Apr 2014
    • 5

    C&C 27 Mark 1 Masthead Help!

    Anyone know who made the mast and masthead for the C&C Mark 1 ? I was thinking of changing the wire/rope halyards to all rope. The problem is I would have to change the sheave size, from wire to ones for rope, and I don't think the fittings under/ or part of the mast cap will allow for it. I mean, going from 5/32 wire to , 3/8 braided rope, I don't see it. But then, I could be wrong. Anyone who's tried this, or can give me ideas or pointers, or info would be greatly appreciated.

    thanks all
  • Mo
    Afourian MVP
    • Jun 2007
    • 4468

    #2
    Originally posted by L Thomas View Post
    Anyone know who made the mast and masthead for the C&C Mark 1 ? I was thinking of changing the wire/rope halyards to all rope. The problem is I would have to change the sheave size, from wire to ones for rope, and I don't think the fittings under/ or part of the mast cap will allow for it. I mean, going from 5/32 wire to , 3/8 braided rope, I don't see it. But then, I could be wrong. Anyone who's tried this, or can give me ideas or pointers, or info would be greatly appreciated.

    thanks all
    Just change it....the pullys have a grove for wire but otherwise will accept line. I switched my main halyard out about 4 yrs ago and the jib last year...just do a good splice between both and pull it through....not an issue. If you need help joining the two lines talk to someone at the club that knows what they are doing...should go really easy.
    Mo

    "Odyssey"
    1976 C&C 30 MKI

    The pessimist complains about the wind.
    The optimist expects it to change.
    The realist adjusts the sails.
    ...Sir William Arthur Ward.

    Comment

    • captainmurph
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2013
      • 35

      #3
      Replacing halyards

      I just did this to my Cal 30 this year and, while I was able to find suitable sheaves to do the jib and spinnaker halyards, there was no way that a suitable sheave for 7/16" (or even 3/8") would fit in the main halyard location.

      I ended up replacing the all wire rope halyard with 3/16" Dyneema which is stronger than the stainless it replaced. Since this has a winch on the mast and I have to go there to reef anyway, there didn't seem to be much downside of not running the line back to the cockpit.
      Greg Murphy
      S/V Amalia
      1965 Cal 30
      Muskegon, MI

      Comment

      • edwardc
        Afourian MVP
        • Aug 2009
        • 2491

        #4
        When I did a mast rebuild two seasons ago, I switched from wire/rope to all-rope halyards. I removed the old aluminum sheaves which were in pretty bad shape, measured them, and had new ones made up by Zephyrwerks. ( http://zephyrwerks.com/ ).

        Black delryn with bronze oilite bushings, and grooved for 3/8" rope. And a great price at $35 ea for four of them.
        @(^.^)@ Ed
        1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
        with rebuilt Atomic-4

        sigpic

        Comment

        • Al Schober
          Afourian MVP
          • Jul 2009
          • 2006

          #5
          LT,
          Wire/rope halyards have gone the way of T12 fluorescents - you can use them, but there are better alternatives.
          No need to change the sheaves unless they're worn. My aluminum sheaves have bronze bushings, which were beat up/extruded and binding against the masthead fitting. Replaced the bushings and the sheaves are fine. The groove in the sheave is needed for wire. Having the groove will not bother a rope one bit.
          Don't be afraid to go with one of the high-tech lines if needed for strength or reduced stretch. I helped build and sail on a 39' custom with a fractional rig - mainsail hoist is 50'. The main halyard is 5/16" - yes, it's 2:1 dead ended at the masthead, but it works fine. Only down side is that when you get the main up, you have 100' of relatively stiff line around your ankles that needs coiling. You quickly learn to do a figure 8 coil using a cabin-top winch and your free hand.
          Go all rope - you won't regret it!

          Comment

          • Jimmy
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2011
            • 128

            #6
            Double Check your Splice

            Double check the quality of your splice.Many C&C masts have foam blocks spaced throughout them, and if your new line is a larger diameter than old, there will be a lot of tugging involved, as you try to pull it through.
            Sadly I learned this the hard way......Upgraded my VHF antena cable this spring. The splice between old and new came apart halfway thru, and I spent a further 20 or so hours putting a show on for fellow Club members at the gin pole.
            How frustrating to try to thread a needle,in the dark, 30 feet beyond your reach

            Cheers,
            Jimmy
            sigpic
            Jimmy
            C&C 29 MK1
            Erieau , Lake Erie

            Comment

            • blhickson
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2012
              • 107

              #7
              All rope halyard

              There's a great youtube video of swapping halyards.



              Most important part is STITCHING the two ends of your lines together so it doesn't come apart inside the mast. Sew it together well and then tape over it.
              I'm curious what size and kind of line you decide on. I've got to replace my main halyard as well. (After the A4 starts purring again...
              Barbara L. Hickson
              Flight Risk
              C&C 33-1
              Chas., SC

              Comment

              • edwardc
                Afourian MVP
                • Aug 2009
                • 2491

                #8
                My halyards are external, so I didn't have the potential problem of the splice hanging up on obstructions.

                For the rope, I used 3/8" New England Ropes "VPC". It's a midrange, midcost hybrid line, with low stretch, good "hand", and fairly flexible. Defender has the best price on it at $1.38/ft.

                And I can't stress enough what a difference changing the sheaves made. The old ones were solid aluminum, with no bearing and flat sides. They were seized on the pins and rubbed on the insides of the masthead box. Used to have to manually pull the sails down. The new ones have both a bearing, and a "stepped" face, with a small shoulder close to the pin. This keeps them from rubbing on the sides of the box.

                This reduction in drag is so great that, for both the main and the roller-furled genoa, if I were to release a halyard, the sails would fall to the deck unassisted. Makes both lowering and raising them vastly easier. I can now hoist the main all the way to the top by hand, only using the winch for the final tensioning.
                @(^.^)@ Ed
                1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
                with rebuilt Atomic-4

                sigpic

                Comment

                • 67c&ccorv
                  Afourian MVP
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 1559

                  #9
                  I use these guys for replacement parts for my C&C Corvette mast;





                  If they don't have it - not too likely anyone else will.

                  Comment

                  • L Thomas
                    Frequent Contributor
                    • Apr 2014
                    • 5

                    #10
                    C&C 27 Mark 1 Masthead Help

                    Hi Gents
                    Thank you for your help. There is not a lot of info or photo's of my boat or mast head how to's. If I were to change the sheaves, I would have to pull of the mast cap and punch out the sheave pin to get them out?. If it gets warmer and doesn't snow, I will go down and measure and check them. The main doesn't all the way by itself, I figured the problem was in the sail slides needing some lubrication. (plastic ones in a groove).

                    Thanks everyone.
                    Lawrence.

                    Comment

                    • Vermonstah
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2014
                      • 111

                      #11
                      Both trying to replace wire to rope halyards on C&C 27' Mk I

                      Lawrence,
                      We might be able to assist each other here. As many others on this forum know, I am no expert, so I am not quick with the advice. But I will gladly share my experience in hopes that it is useful to you.

                      I also have a Mk I, #45. I have had her for going on 3 years. I have no idea how old the halyards ares, but they are old - and both jib and main are wire to rope. I also have roller furling, which I have come to learn is a big deal, for the Mk I anyway.

                      I replaced my main halyard with 90 feet of an all rope, 10 mm line. I went with New England VPC hybrid but just about any modern line would have been an upgrade to what I had on there. I went with 10 mm because I did NOT want to swap out any existing deck hardware. My existing clutches work well and do NOT leak, no guarantee that remains true if I start messing with them [though I have found the current thread on butyl tape VERY informative!]

                      For the main, I can attest 10 mm line will pass thru the masthead. I had all of 3 cruises at the end of last season with the new main halyard, so I cannot say anything definitive about durability of the line from any additional friction at the masthead. If I detect excessive wear on the main halyard, I will investigate whether I can drop down to 8mm line and still remain compatible with my blocks, clutches etc.

                      I did NOT change any sheaves at the masthead. And I am trying to avoid that modification, for now anyway. Lots of opinions on that, both on this forum and on others, like the C&C '27 Association. Remember, I am no expert. But I have been up my mast, and the sheaves looked "OK" to me, for whatever that is worth. Really, not much, even to me.

                      I took some pictures of my masthead that I posted here: http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8587
                      You can see that there is very little clearance for the jib halyard.

                      At haulout, the yard foreman used the crane and inspected the masthead, declaring the sheaves "good to go" for rope halyards but confirming that there is VERY little clearance between the masthead and the mounting hardware for the roller furler. As for the jib halyard, a 10 mm line will NOT pass thru my masthead in its current configuration. Not going to happen.

                      Here is my current thinking: for my jib halyard, I am considering a rope to rope halyard, say 1/4" forward section spliced to 3/8" to run back to the cockpit. These thicknesses roughly approximate the wire and rope sections of my previous jib halyard. [Though my thickness measurements of the rope section vary from 3/8 to 7/16 over different points along the rope and actually exceed 1/2 at the spice with the wire] I got the idea of splicing rope to rope from Annapolis Performance Sailing and they recommended that I use a Vectran Cored Double braid.

                      Do you happen to have the length measurements for the two sections of your wire to rope, jib halyard? I cannot get reliable measurements from my previous halyard, as I know it has been altered and it had very little tail back to the cockpit. I want to get a "second opinion" on the lengths of these two sections because I know the slice will NOT fit thru the masthead - not going to happen. And if I get the measurements correct, I should not need the splice to pass over the masthead sheave.

                      If you are interested, I started a similar thread here on the C&C '27 Forum:http://www.cc27association.com/f3/to...fid=2&tid=8220

                      But, if I get any additional info from the Association forum, I will update my thread here on the Moyer forum as well.

                      Best of luck to you!
                      Brian

                      Comment

                      • blhickson
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2012
                        • 107

                        #12
                        Just swapped halyards yesterday!

                        . West Marine just had a 40% off line sale. I got the NE VPC 10mm 3/8th inch smallest that my clutch will hold. The hardest part for me to figure out was joining the cut end of the old wire to the bitter end of the new. Tried laying them side by side and sewed and then taped together with a good 12" of overlap. This would not fit through the masthead block with out yanking on it. Did not want to do that. Also if you're working by yourself, the sharp angle going into the block was going to be a problem with the new fairly stiff VPC. Here's what I did:
                        Cut the old shackle off the wire halyard and tape the frayed ends together tightly. (I used electrical tape, had no duct tape). A sail needle will pass thru the stainless wire twist so thread that with a good length say 3 ft of waxed thread double it and knot. I had to butt the end of the old wire halyard to the whipped end of the new VPC in order for it to pass thru said masthead block. Sew the line to the wire, passing the needle behind the whipping and well above the taped end of the wire, high enough that any pulling is not going to fray it and pull thru your taped end. Make as many passes from rope to wire keeping the butted ends together as you've got thread. Knot off the end of your sewing several times. It may all look a bit messy. But tape over the joint you've made; I used painters tape as it was the most flexible smoothest I had on board. You have a single thickness of line now to pass thru the block.
                        Before you start raisin the new halyard, be absolutely sure that it can run free and there are no kinks anywhere. Using the old halyard, begin pulling new halyard thru. When your joint gets very close to the block, stop and gently bring the line aft to the stern rail and tie it off so that it has enough slack to get the joint through. All you're doing is making the angle of entry greater to reduce the friction. Go forward to mast and begin pulling again. It helps for the line to have momentum as it approaches the block so give it a gentle running start. I got mine to go over the block on the 3rd try. So relieved!! Hope this helps. Also the C & C Owners forum is fantastic for this kind of info. See www.c&c-photoalbum.com for more info.
                        Barbara L. Hickson
                        Flight Risk
                        C&C 33-1
                        Chas., SC

                        Comment

                        • JOHN COOKSON
                          Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 3500

                          #13
                          Originally posted by blhickson View Post
                          .
                          Cut the old shackle off the wire halyard and tape the frayed ends together tightly. (I used electrical tape, had no duct tape). A sail needle will pass thru the stainless wire twist so thread that with a good length say 3 ft of waxed thread double it and knot. I had to butt the end of the old wire halyard to the whipped end of the new VPC in order for it to pass thru said masthead block. Sew the line to the wire, passing the needle behind the whipping and well above the taped end of the wire, high enough that any pulling is not going to fray it and pull thru your taped end. Make as many passes from rope to wire keeping the butted ends together as you've got thread. Knot off the end of your sewing several times. It may all look a bit messy. But tape over the joint you've made; I used painters tape as it was the most flexible smoothest I had on board. You have a single thickness of line now to pass thru the block.
                          info. See www.c&c-photoalbum.com for more info.
                          After you have done the butt splice and get the splice taped up grab the spliced area with a couple pairs of pliers and twist one of the pliers clockwise and the other one counterclockwise. Electrical tape works the best because it stretches easy.
                          This will add a bit of twist and make the splice stronger.
                          Practice makes perfect.

                          TRUE GRIT

                          Maybe this is in the C&C album - it wouldn't come up on my computer.
                          Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 02-22-2015, 11:55 AM.

                          Comment

                          • Vermonstah
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2014
                            • 111

                            #14
                            Barbara - this is very good advice, especially splicing to the wire portion of your existing halyard - I struggled with this very thing as there was no way that the splice on my existing wire to rope halyard was passing thru the masthead.

                            Thing is, that on the C&C 27, Mk I, a 3/8" (or 10 mm) jib halyard is not passing thru the masthead. I am still looking, but have yet to find anyone that has done it without any modifications. I stripped away the core of a 10 mm line and then got the cover to pass over the sheave but could not get the full line thru....

                            Which brings me to another tip that I learned from Shawn on this forum. If you don't follow these excellent tips on securing a temporary splice and subsequently lose your messenger line, affix your messenger line to say 16 to 18" of bicycle chain and then pass the chain over the masthead sheaves. The chain has a good combination of mass, flexibility and rigidity to pass over the sheave and then pull your messenger line down thru the mast.

                            Still hoping to get some info on the Mk I from someone on the forum of the C&C 27 Association. I have not had as much luck with the forum on the C&C owners photo album site, does not seem to have as many 27 owners there. And I keep discovering new ways in which the 27s varied, even within the same Marks.

                            Thanks for all the great suggestions.

                            Comment

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