Indigo

[sastanley]

Tom,
My C-30 has a bronze shaft. Nice and bright gold.

I got the prop off tonight without trouble using the correct puller (rented for $15) I cleaned up the shaft for Pettit Zinc coat 1792 paint which a friend used and said was GREAT stuff. So, I'll try it.

Need some lapping compound for the taper too

Can I use a brass cotter pin, or should I get a bronze one?..brass maybe too soft?

[thatch]

Bronze a surprise!

shawn,
A quick search of my catalogs and on the internet only shows up stainless cotter keys. The prop nut kits also come with stainless keys so it must be an accepted practice. To change the subject a little, have you checked your strut bearing?
Tom

[sastanley]

cutless bearing

I found brass cotter pins at the hardware store..is brass softer than bronze? It doesn't seem that anyone is worried about electrolysis issues with stainless cotter keys, but it also seems most have SS shafts too.

Tom, Yes...one of the things I was worried about a little was the cutless bearing. It however, is in good condition. It is not super tight, but it only moves a fraction of an inch when I shake it (along with the entire boat! ) - I didn't measure the play, but it is barely noticeable, maybe 1/16" - 1/32"? ?

The reason I was worried about it was because I can visually see the stuffing box moving around a little bit as the shaft rotates, and I discovered loose lags in the mounts, as well as some of the lock nuts on the mounts had moved over the last 30 years, so I assume this is the reason for the out-of-round shaft. I was able to remove the coupling bolts, but could not separate the coupler halves last week. I was a little leery about messing with it too much and forcing things while in the water, but now that the boat is on the hard, I should probably try again, so that I can align it once I have it in the water. What types of things are people doing to separate the coupler pieces? I was sitting in the cockpit last week with Nigel Calder's book & his alignment procedure is all well & good, but he also assumes you are starting with the coupler apart...no real info on separating old rusty ones.

I guess if I get the coupler apart, what I should really do is get the coupler off the shaft and then remove the shaft from the boat to make sure it isn't bent...is that something you can see, or do you have to take it to somewhere??? At that point I might as well replace the cutless bearing. Hell, I might as well get Moyer to ship me a nice fresh rebuilt long block! Not sure if I have time for all that nonsense.

[thatch]

No dynamite please!

Shawn,
Sounds like you're going through things at a good pace. Seperating the 2 rusty flanges can probably best be done by using a relatively sharp cold chisel and hammer at the joint line while holding a buck on the opposite side. This is where that extra set of hands helps out. Getting the set screws out of the coupling is normally difficult so soak them as early as possible and "sharpen" your allen wrenches before trying to loosten them. A good method to remove the prop flange from the shaft is to insert a socket (from your socket set) that is smaller than 1" in diameter in between the 2 flanges and, using longer bolts, try to pull the 2 together. The socket will force the flange off of the shaft. Make sure you lube the threads well and use even pressure around the 3 bolts. If, as you say, your strut bearing and your stuffing box are in good condition removing your prop shaft is not absolutely necessary, unless of course you think you have a bent prop shaft.
I'm off to the boat,
Tom
P.S. Since they supply SS cotter keys with the brass prop nut kits, I would tend to go with that since it would probably be less likely to break.

[Dave Neptune]

Bent

Shawn, the shaft can be easily "peen straightened" by most compitent marine prop shops. All you need to do is identify the bearing and sealing areas and they will peen elsewhere on the shaft. If you were close I would say bring it by and in about 20 minutes and some beer supplied by you the shaft would be straight. I have done many over the years for friends and a top fuel boat's shafts after engine failures. Yes they will want to sell you a new shaft (probably not necessary) and if they do succeed go for the stainless as it is easieir to repair and a bit more durable.

Dave Neptune

[hanleyclifford]

coupler and shaft issues

Shawn - I must strongly disagree with Tom on this business of using a cold chisel and hammer to separate engine and shaft coupler. If you do it you will end up replacing or remachining surfaces, that is if you expect to get a good final alignment. Avoid brass cotter pins - they are brittle and stainless steel will gobble them up. Bronze is much better but why bother if you have a ss shaft? Indeed the current wisdom is to go with ss shafting - much less likely to bend. Be sure to use a prop nut zinc to protect the prop from the shaft. Shields up.

[ndutton]

Shawn,
I hate the idea of hammering anything, unintended consequences, y'know? The only thing getting hammered on my boat is . . . well, maybe that's for another topic.

I've never tried this but here's what I'm thinkin': I'd consider sacrificing a C clamp by grinding a sharp wedge shape in the fixed part and applying clamping pressure with the wedge on the joint. Probably work it around the coupler a little at a time. I think that would get you greater wedging pressure applied non-violently and no side forces on the shaft, coupler or rear engine seal.

[roadnsky]

Oh Boyz...

Doesn't Don sell a tool for this very thing?

Output coupling puller
This puller, in combination with the output coupling holding tool, enables you to remove the most stubborn output couplings, even on boats with poor access to the aft section of the engine.

[ndutton]

As I understood it Shawn's shaft was stuck in the coupling and the coupling stuck to the engine output coupler. If I didn't misread it, he'll have to approach this from outside the coupling.

[roadnsky]

Duh!

Neil-
You're right. I just re-read his earlier post.
Ignore me. I'm going sailing...

[Marian Claire]

Would it make sense to make a gasket to keep the two flanges from rusting together? Back from my trip and full of “ideas” or something. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[sastanley]

shafts, couplers, pins, bolts, etc.

Alert, alert..this is a blabber-on post from Shawn...thanks for all the continued responses!

Sounds like the consensus is stainless cotter pin. What about a little blue loctite or something on the threads too? Is this not necessary with bronze threads?

I am half tempted to not mess with anything else at this point.

The problem I hope is really with getting the engine back to where I think it belongs (possible mount bolts moving over the years) to align the shaft with the stuffing box/cutless bearing.

Maybe it has always been crooked? I am almost sure the coupler has probably never been apart..(At least the stuffing box was re-packed in 2007..I found an invoice for that!), but the stuffing box hose looks original and only has one hose clamp on each end.

Back to the coupler, if I recall, the coupler has 1/2" (wrench size) bolts in it, so probably 5/16" diameter, and I have already been successful in removing them with PB Blaster..but the coupler pieces are stuck. The only reason I'd separate them is to clean the mating surfaces and put them back together (not frozen) to check for alignment. The way I understand the process, once separated, the coupler halves should be mis-aligned when rejoined and then I can move things around to align them again..unless the shaft is bent. I am just not good enough to attempt this with the pieces still together...like the blind leading the blind

When the engine was in gear at idle, there was a slight wobble (& has been) at the stuffing box..that is what I am trying to fix while I have a (very small) window before dropping her back in the water this weekend.

I guess if we assume the shaft is straight, has anyone had success re-aligning without de-coupling the coupler to get a starting point?

Speaking of that, the coupler pieces are fused so tight, I have no idea how anyone could get any feeler gauges in there for alignment purposes..do you do that with bolts in or out???

Would there actually be some clearance if they were not fused? Even with mine out and them frozen together, I can't slip the thinnest of anything in there (my thinnest gauge is 0.005).

Sorry for the rambling...final question....Is there any harm in tying the boat to the dock one Saturday afternoon, putting her in gear, and moving the motor one corner at a time to try to improve (eliminate) the wobble?

OK, I lied, one more...maybe I should replace the original stuffing box too, which would force getting the shaft apart..is that just some clamps and a new piece of hose, provided the other hardware is OK?

This was supposed to be a 'maybe prop change if I can easily get the prop off' but, of course I am now contemplating all this other stuff. I should have allotted more time for this process!!

edit -
I've typing this for a while, & you guys were rolling on with ideas while I was blabbering away. Yes..the shaft is still in the coupler..I didn't think about removing the set screw & key to see if the shaft would come out. I figured that would be the easy part once the couplers were separated. After the prop came off with the puller, I had to tap the key out of the shaft cut-out, but I couldn't remove it by hand. If I understand its purpose, doesn't the woodruff key go in both the shaft & coupler?? I dunno if I could remove it with it still attached to the motor.

The boat launches on Friday, so I can't really get into something I can't fix by then...which is why I am leaning towards doing nothing. I also don't know if we still have a shaft/prop shop in town that I could go to..I'd have to probably drive to Annapolis.

If I can rig some way to rotate the shaft (sail tie wrapped around the shaft a couple of times outside the boat) shouldn't I see the same wobble at the prop end if it is there? Ah, I am going crazy thinking about all this at work!

[Marian Claire]

My flanges where separated when I realigned. But as still as the A-4 sits while running I think you could try your approach. I would just barely start the shaft spinning, not full forward, and watch. I would wait to replace anything else until you are satisfied the shaft is straight. Good luck. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[marthur]

To seperate the couplings without banging, try twisting them using a couple of 18" pipe wrenches. Put one on the prop shaft or the prop side of the coupling and the other on the transmission side of the couple. A little "welly" and the rust seal (which has probably built up in the lip of coupling) should be broken. It will seperate easily by pulling on the prop.

Getting the coupling off the shaft will be another battle! If you have the space, use a tool like the Moyer coupling removal tool (TOOL_06_135 ). Or put a deep socket between the couplers and use slightly longer bolts to squeeze them together--forcing out the shaft.

As for cotter pins, 316 stainless and Silicon Bronze are close on the galvanic series and do not pose the same corrosion issues that other metal combinations do. Many people use the stainless cotter pin on their bronze shaft's and vice versa without problems (I know Don Moyer does, for example).

However, if you are worried about it, you can find bronze cotter pins at Jamestown distributors and a few other places: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/main.do

[hanleyclifford]

Shawn - I hate to sound pedantic but it is absolutely essential that you get your shaft aligned within .003" or many draconian consequences could ensue. If you cannot separate the two pieces "nicely", then you must do as Tom suggests - you must destroy and replace them.