Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Exhaust System

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 209.234.189.74
Old 03-18-2015, 03:32 PM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cranking raw water cooled the engine too much then vapor or smoke

Hi All!

I'm new to the atomic 4 game, and have an exhaust related question.

Starting up the engine for the first time on a new boat I neglected to open the valve on the fuel line and cranked for a while without the engine turning over. It was probably around a minute give or take total cranking time. Eventually figured out what was up, and got the thing running. The next day I got this in an e-mail
Important! If for some reason you have to crank the motor a bunch make sure to close the raw water intake otherwise it sucks water back up into the exhaust manifold and mucks things up.

Fast forward to the next trip out, first extended test under load, the engine ran fine for 20 minutes or so, then started to stumble, then die. Next time, a little longer, but similar symptoms. These I was attributing to bad gas, which I changed out last week, and started up, ran under load at the dock for about an hour no issues, but I did notice a lot of white smoke or vapor coming out of the exhaust. I believe it's vapor because it dissipates relatively quickly. The vapor is pretty minimal under low to moderate load, somewhat typical for

My question
Does it sound like water has backed up into the exhaust manifold?

If so, What do I do about it?

Thanks

tim
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 03-18-2015, 07:51 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Tim, it blew out when you got it running. Cranking for extended "STARTING LIKE TIMES" can cause a build up of water in the "exhaust" of which can back up far enough to flood the exhaust manifold, no biggie. The biggie is that an open exhaust valve or two may let the water into the cylinders and on into the oil~~ big mess and possible seizing of the engine!!!

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 12.172.250.194
Old 03-18-2015, 07:52 PM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,439
Thanks: 46
Thanked 259 Times in 170 Posts
If the engine starts readily and runs for 20 minutes at a clip before stumbling and dying, it isn't exhibiting obvious signs of a manifold problem. But you might want to check for a stuck valve or head gasket issue by removing the spark plugs one at a time (carefully, so you don't get zapped) and seeing if the engine slows down for each one. If the engine sound doesn't change, you know there's something wrong in that cylinder.

But your symptoms sound more to me like a failing coil. Other possibilities include a failing condenser (unless you have electronic ignition, which I think is a no-brainer upgrade), a clogged fuel filter, or a failing fuel pump.
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 209.234.189.74
Old 03-18-2015, 08:08 PM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks! The engine was just rebuilt, so i'm hoping its not something serious,

for reference, here's a video of what's coming out at a moderate load

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvNqbzZeCMw
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 209.234.189.74
Old 03-18-2015, 08:11 PM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Also, no water in the oil, first place I checked...

It seems to be running well now, just the smoke/vapor coming out has me concerned
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 03-18-2015, 08:12 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redtim View Post
Thanks! The engine was just rebuilt, so i'm hoping its not something serious,

for reference, here's a video of what's coming out at a moderate load

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvNqbzZeCMw
That is not enough water coming out. Check for restrictions in the raw water circuit.
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 73.55.66.163
Old 03-18-2015, 09:26 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
You checked for water in the oil, right?
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 74.78.114.78
Old 03-18-2015, 11:42 PM
BunnyPlanet169's Avatar
BunnyPlanet169 BunnyPlanet169 is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: York, ME
Posts: 952
Thanks: 25
Thanked 94 Times in 67 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
That is not enough water coming out. Check for restrictions in the raw water circuit.
I agree - and that's steam from something too warm.

Do you have a temperature gauge, and what's it reading?
Does the water flow change if you play with the bypass valve? Do you have a bypass valve?
__________________
Jeff


S/V Bunny Planet
1971 Bristol 29 #169
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 98.171.168.85
Old 03-19-2015, 02:07 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnyPlanet169 View Post
I agree - and that's steam from something too warm.
Another +1.
You shouldn't be getting batching at "moderate load" RPMs. You should only see batching at idle RPMs.
Here's what to do.
Leave the hose attached to the outlet fitting on the manifold but disconnect the other end and aim it out into the cockpit or into the bilge. Start the engine and rev it up a bit. Water should come out like a garden hose. Don't melt any plastic mufflers while doing this. If you aren't getting enough water through the engine there is a restriction to the flow through the engine or you have a failing water pump. Report back. We'll you what to do next.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 209.234.189.74
Old 03-19-2015, 10:07 AM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
You checked for water in the oil, right?
Yep, the oil looks fine
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 209.234.189.74
Old 03-19-2015, 10:12 AM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnyPlanet169 View Post
I agree - and that's steam from something too warm.

Do you have a temperature gauge, and what's it reading?
Does the water flow change if you play with the bypass valve? Do you have a bypass valve?
Yeah, the temperature at idle is around 140 at moderate load climbs to around 170

Not sure about the bypass valve, I'll take a look when I get over to the boat tonight.
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 209.234.189.74
Old 03-19-2015, 10:14 AM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Another +1.
You shouldn't be getting batching at "moderate load" RPMs. You should only see batching at idle RPMs.
Here's what to do.
Leave the hose attached to the outlet fitting on the manifold but disconnect the other end and aim it out into the cockpit or into the bilge. Start the engine and rev it up a bit. Water should come out like a garden hose. Don't melt any plastic mufflers while doing this. If you aren't getting enough water through the engine there is a restriction to the flow through the engine or you have a failing water pump. Report back. We'll you what to do next.

TRUE GRIT
Thanks, will give this a shot.
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 70.197.23.18
Old 03-19-2015, 10:07 PM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
Another +1.
You shouldn't be getting batching at "moderate load" RPMs. You should only see batching at idle RPMs.
Here's what to do.
Leave the hose attached to the outlet fitting on the manifold but disconnect the other end and aim it out into the cockpit or into the bilge. Start the engine and rev it up a bit. Water should come out like a garden hose. Don't melt any plastic mufflers while doing this. If you aren't getting enough water through the engine there is a restriction to the flow through the engine or you have a failing water pump. Report back. We'll you what to do next.

TRUE GRIT
Ok! Pulled the hose off, and the water was running out pretty evenly like a garden hose
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 70.197.23.18
Old 03-19-2015, 10:08 PM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BunnyPlanet169 View Post
I agree - and that's steam from something too warm.

Do you have a temperature gauge, and what's it reading?
Does the water flow change if you play with the bypass valve? Do you have a bypass valve?
I don't see a bypass valve, the line runs straight from the water pump to the thermostat.
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 96.50.51.15
Old 03-20-2015, 12:03 AM
Easy Rider's Avatar
Easy Rider Easy Rider is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 139
Thanks: 231
Thanked 30 Times in 20 Posts
Tim,
There is a "T" fitting on the hose between the water pump and the thermostat. The "T" fitting is where the cooling water enters the block and the volume is controlled by the thermostat. If you have a by-pass valve it would be located between the "T" connection and the thermostat. They are an aftermarket product and are available from our host. Some of the guys here who have lost faith in their thermostats or like to have a manual means of controlling the temperature have installed them and from all accounts like them.

Just a way out thought, but if your located where the outside temperature is cold you could be exhausting some condensation as part of what we can see.

Chuck
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 70.197.23.18
Old 03-20-2015, 01:03 AM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy Rider View Post
Tim,
There is a "T" fitting on the hose between the water pump and the thermostat. The "T" fitting is where the cooling water enters the block and the volume is controlled by the thermostat. If you have a by-pass valve it would be located between the "T" connection and the thermostat. They are an aftermarket product and are available from our host. Some of the guys here who have lost faith in their thermostats or like to have a manual means of controlling the temperature have installed them and from all accounts like them.

Just a way out thought, but if your located where the outside temperature is cold you could be exhausting some condensation as part of what we can see.

Chuck
I'm in the San francisco bay, so not too cold around here. Thanks for the info on the bypass. I'm thinking about disconnecting the water line from the exhaust and letting it run for a while to see if the vapor is still visible.

Is there any reason the hot water needs to run through the exhaust outlet if running for a while?
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 98.171.168.85
Old 03-20-2015, 01:55 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
redtim
I think you have the idea.
Here was my experience with my late model RWC engine:
I led a hose from the manifold to the cockpit and started the engine. My feet were in water so I thought I'd aim the hose over the side of the boat. I did this and revved the engine up and shot a stream of water across the finger pier and into my neighbors boat's cockpit!
To say I was amazed would be an understatement.
If you are getting this sort of output after the water goes through the engine then there is a blockage to flow after the engine somewhere. As you have figured out this is why I wanted you to disconnect the hose after the manifold and check the flow.

You can run the engine with no water coming out the exhaust for awhile. Be careful not to heat damage any hoses or plastic mufflers.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 70.110.28.136
Old 03-20-2015, 09:04 AM
edwardc's Avatar
edwardc edwardc is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 2,509
Thanks: 153
Thanked 595 Times in 388 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redtim View Post
Is there any reason the hot water needs to run through the exhaust outlet if running for a while?
YES!! Without the cooling water, the high temperature exhaust will quickly damage the rubber exhaust hose. The damage will be on the inside and not readily apparent. The hose will begin to delaminate and buckle internally, causing an exhaust blockage.

EDIT: John types quicker than me!
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed
1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 76.21.29.115
Old 03-20-2015, 02:25 PM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks all,
will do some more checking this weekend.

One thing to note, Looking at the exhaust hot section,
I have something similar to this
http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...rebuilder.html

but the whole thing is a bit smaller and the water barb is higher up on the hot section.

I also noticed that the description there indicates I should have a continuous downhill flow, the rubber hose heading to the exhaust port is a sagging tube, could that be causing problems? I haven't been able to inspect the full length of the tube, but it seems like this setup would have no further restrictions down the line save for a kinked hose?



Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
redtim
I think you have the idea.
Here was my experience with my late model RWC engine:
I led a hose from the manifold to the cockpit and started the engine. My feet were in water so I thought I'd aim the hose over the side of the boat. I did this and revved the engine up and shot a stream of water across the finger pier and into my neighbors boat's cockpit!
To say I was amazed would be an understatement.
If you are getting this sort of output after the water goes through the engine then there is a blockage to flow after the engine somewhere. As you have figured out this is why I wanted you to disconnect the hose after the manifold and check the flow.

You can run the engine with no water coming out the exhaust for awhile. Be careful not to heat damage any hoses or plastic mufflers.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #20   IP: 174.94.22.52
Old 03-21-2015, 09:51 PM
67c&ccorv's Avatar
67c&ccorv 67c&ccorv is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London, ON
Posts: 1,559
Thanks: 4
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Let's start from the beginning - what motor do you have?

An early model or a late model A4?

Because it makes a difference in water flow out the transom with an early model Dole thermostat system.

Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 76.21.29.115
Old 03-22-2015, 03:41 PM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 67c&ccorv View Post
Let's start from the beginning - what motor do you have?

An early model or a late model A4?

Because it makes a difference in water flow out the transom with an early model Dole thermostat system.

It's an atomic 4

It has an oil fill tube over the flywheel, which seems to indicate late model?

Also, after getting the tach working, I noticed that the engine tops out at 1500 - 1700 rpms. below that, I don't notice much vapor exiting the transom, after that it's billowing out.
Reply With Quote
  #22   IP: 174.94.22.52
Old 03-22-2015, 09:26 PM
67c&ccorv's Avatar
67c&ccorv 67c&ccorv is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London, ON
Posts: 1,559
Thanks: 4
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redtim View Post
It's an atomic 4

It has an oil fill tube over the flywheel, which seems to indicate late model?

Also, after getting the tach working, I noticed that the engine tops out at 1500 - 1700 rpms. below that, I don't notice much vapor exiting the transom, after that it's billowing out.
Not necessarily - do you have a serial number or year of manufacture?

What type of thermostat do you have?

Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 76.21.29.115
Old 03-22-2015, 10:17 PM
redtim redtim is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 37
Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The boat is a 74 Ericson 27, the engine... I'm not so sure.

I would guess it was installed aftermarket due to all the weird holes cut around it for access, but who knows.

I'll look for the date stamp when I get back on the boat this week.
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 74.78.114.78
Old 03-22-2015, 10:41 PM
BunnyPlanet169's Avatar
BunnyPlanet169 BunnyPlanet169 is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: York, ME
Posts: 952
Thanks: 25
Thanked 94 Times in 67 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redtim View Post
It's an atomic 4

It has an oil fill tube over the flywheel, which seems to indicate late model?

Also, after getting the tach working, I noticed that the engine tops out at 1500 - 1700 rpms. below that, I don't notice much vapor exiting the transom, after that it's billowing out.
Take a couple pictures of your engine when you're out there - that'll help identify it.

Billowing white vapor is usually not a good thing, sorry. But let's burn that bridge when we come to it.
__________________
Jeff


S/V Bunny Planet
1971 Bristol 29 #169
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 71.59.69.172
Old 03-22-2015, 11:01 PM
BadaBing's Avatar
BadaBing BadaBing is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Little Egg Harbor NJ
Posts: 503
Thanks: 28
Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts
Redtim
Take a few pictures. They will help the MBPs better understand what your trying to describe.
What you are showing as a water lift muffler.some of them are made of plastic or fiberglass and WILL melt if run even for a short time with no water.

I suggest this, because it worked for me, disconnect the discharge hose from the manifold, WHEN THE ENGINE IS COLD, and add in a pc of hose going to a f gal bucket. At idle you should be pumping at about 4from through the engine.
If your going to rev the engine you will fill your bilge or your neighbors boat in short order. Do this test with a cold.engine and don't run it very long or you risk trashing parts down strewn in the exhaust gas as described above.

Because your raw water cooled(?) The block or head may be full.of crud. Have you done an acid flush on the engine? Actually 170 at FOT under load isn't bad at all and my Tartan blows some steem or it did when I pushed her.

If you have good flow through the ,and.I'm.guessing you do, you might want.to look at that water lift muffler. Someone posted a picture e here a while.back of one packed full of crud.
1500- 1700 at FOT is a tad low. You would.expect.to see 24, 25, 2700 if your prop.is correct and the engine is healthy. 1500 is low cruising rpm.

A little steam at high end under load isn't a big deal. Aft e r all your mixing water with some VERY hot exhaust gasses. But your lower rpm suggest something is going on.
Ok pictures pictures pictures. Did I suggest you share some pictures? ( of the engine, exhaust gas, hose configurations. Pictures of the kids are nice but won't be much help.
Bill
__________________
Bill
1974, Tartan 30, Unchained Melody
www.CanvasWorks.US

Last edited by BadaBing; 03-23-2015 at 09:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cranking, exhaust, smoke, vapor

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine water heater question sleonhard Announcements 2 03-21-2012 09:03 PM
Seized engine turns over!...but.... mbettman Troubleshooting 10 10-28-2010 05:11 AM
plumbing FW water cooled engines for hot water heater gfatula Cooling System 6 11-20-2008 07:18 AM
Diagnosing water in cylinders raleighm Troubleshooting 1 05-30-2007 12:50 PM
Removing the engine from your boat Don Moyer Ranger 7 12-12-2005 12:24 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved