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View Poll Results: What material was used to make the standpipe?
Copper 10 27.03%
Steel 4 10.81%
Stainless Steel 10 27.03%
Black Iron 8 21.62%
Bronze 3 8.11%
Some Other Material 1 2.70%
Don't Know/Can't Tell 1 2.70%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1   IP: 38.102.16.169
Old 10-12-2010, 07:07 AM
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Standpipe Construction

For those of you with standpipes in their exhaust systems, what material was used to make them?

Bill
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:29 AM
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Bill

I have a Tartan 34 Classic. All originally have a standpipe.
The standpipe is made of bronze. Lead up to by black pipe which
is threaded into the bottom of the cylinder.

Art
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:49 AM
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Black Iron.
Home Depot special

??? - Is the standpipe the same thing as the riser?
If not, then I don't have one.
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Old 10-12-2010, 04:45 PM
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Good question. I would say that a standpipe is indeed a riser that elevates the exhaust to such a level that the engine does not have to drive water uphill. So a standpipe is always a riser, but a riser is not a standpipe.
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Old 10-13-2010, 07:29 AM
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Could someone please explain in greater detail the diagram of risers and
standpipes? I think I have a standpipe, especially since the engine is
buried in the keel on the Tartan 34C. The water must push uphill though.

Thanks

Art
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Old 10-13-2010, 08:52 AM
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Art,
Is the question how the standpipe system works or whether or not you have one? Or both?
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:15 AM
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Neil

I believe that I have one, but don't understand how a riser differs and
why according to Hanley's post a standpipe doesn't need to lift water.

There may be some confusion from others, including myself how the 3 systems
work and differ (including water lift.

Regards

Art
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:33 AM
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Art - The answer is that the standpipe rises so high that when the water is finally injected it is at such a vertical position in the system that the water simply flows downhill and out the transom. The exhaust is not impeded by the water and there is no "batching". Regards, Hanley
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:09 AM
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Yeah Art, understand how it could be confusing.

First, the term 'riser' is used for a variety of things. In our exhaust systems it simply refers to a pipe going up, a component of the system. I used the term over on the 'no more fouled plugs' thread to accurately describe a vertical structural component (bulkheads are perpendicular to the centerline, risers are parallel).

You are correct that the raw water must be lifted to a point higher than the waterline in all marine exhaust systems (except keel pipe/dry stack systems that don't pump raw water aboard and therefore don't have to expel it but we're not going there). In the standpipe system the water is lifted by the raw water pump. The waterlift system uses exhaust pressure to lift the water, hence the name. Lifting the water with exhaust pressure diminishes the engine's ability to breathe, although in a properly designed system, not much. See last paragraph for an odd quirk about this.

A waterlift system injects the water ahead of the muffler by means of a mixer, usually an inline type like Moyer sells or a mixing elbow like the Westerbeke or Yanmar. A standpipe system injects the water directly into the top of the muffler.

A standpipe muffler is always located above the waterline, a waterlift is usually below the waterline and often below the engine.

The odd quirk: we've gone 'round and 'round about exhaust hose size and whether bigger is better. With a standpipe system, bigger is better, no question. A waterlift however, reaches a point of diminishing return. As the designed exhaust hose gets larger, so does the water 'batch' the exhaust is trying to push uphill resulting in more backpressure. In this case, the larger hose creates more pressure, the opposite of what you'd think. Strange but true. The optimum design is a hose big enough for the engine to breathe but not too big. Based on a recent poll, it's somewhere between 1 1/2" and 2".

Hope this helps.
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Old 10-13-2010, 01:29 PM
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Our 1969 Pearson 35 still has the copper standpipe which I believe to be original equipment, although our late model A4 is probably not original to the boat. There's a post from late 2008, I think, that diagrams how the standpipe system works. We've had no trouble with it and to my knowledge neither did the PO. Having said that, knock on wood.
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Old 10-13-2010, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Yeah Art, understand how it could be confusing.

First, the term 'riser' is used for a variety of things. In our exhaust systems it simply refers to a pipe going up, a component of the system. I used the term over on the 'no more fouled plugs' thread to accurately describe a vertical structural component (bulkheads are perpendicular to the centerline, risers are parallel).

You are correct that the raw water must be lifted to a point higher than the waterline in all marine exhaust systems (except keel pipe/dry stack systems that don't pump raw water aboard and therefore don't have to expel it but we're not going there). In the standpipe system the water is lifted by the raw water pump. The waterlift system uses exhaust pressure to lift the water, hence the name. Lifting the water with exhaust pressure diminishes the engine's ability to breathe, although in a properly designed system, not much. See last paragraph for an odd quirk about this.

A waterlift system injects the water ahead of the muffler by means of a mixer, usually an inline type like Moyer sells or a mixing elbow like the Westerbeke or Yanmar. A standpipe system injects the water directly into the top of the muffler.

A standpipe muffler is always located above the waterline, a waterlift is usually below the waterline and often below the engine.

The odd quirk: we've gone 'round and 'round about exhaust hose size and whether bigger is better. With a standpipe system, bigger is better, no question. A waterlift however, reaches a point of diminishing return. As the designed exhaust hose gets larger, so does the water 'batch' the exhaust is trying to push uphill resulting in more backpressure. In this case, the larger hose creates more pressure, the opposite of what you'd think. Strange but true. The optimum design is a hose big enough for the engine to breathe but not too big. Based on a recent poll, it's somewhere between 1 1/2" and 2".

Hope this helps.
Thanks for the great explanation

Regards

Art
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:17 PM
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standpipe construction

Nduttion, thanks for the clear explanation, now I have a question regarding the optimum pipe ID size for a water lift system. I am about to replace the hot section of my (Moyer) water lift system and have found reasonably priced 316L pipe components from McMaster Carr for 1 1/4 pipe. They show two wall thicknesses, one Schedule 40 and the thicker wall, Schedule 80. The thicker wall decreases the pipe area by about 15% but affords greater lifetime. From you comments, I gather that I do not want to decrease the pipe area any more than necessary, is that correct?
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tartansailboat View Post
Nduttion, thanks for the clear explanation, now I have a question regarding the optimum pipe ID size for a water lift system. I am about to replace the hot section of my (Moyer) water lift system and have found reasonably priced 316L pipe components from McMaster Carr for 1 1/4 pipe. They show two wall thicknesses, one Schedule 40 and the thicker wall, Schedule 80. The thicker wall decreases the pipe area by about 15% but affords greater lifetime. From you comments, I gather that I do not want to decrease the pipe area any more than necessary, is that correct?
Hopefully avoiding one of my notorious lengthy posts, I'll try and hit the marks. Please know that these are my opinions and around here opinions vary.

Optimum pipe size
There was a poll last year on this subject and if I recall, 1 1/4" pipe was the most common. Note that the A-4 exhaust flange is 1 1/4" as is the Moyer mixer and many of us have that size hot section with excellent performance. I don't think anyone is running smaller than 1 1/4". Others strongly advocate larger sizes to 2". Be sure to read the 'odd quirk' in the previous quote.

Sch 40 vs. Sch 80 pipe

You're talking 316 stainless pipe so I think sch 40 will last a lifetime as it is.
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Last edited by ndutton; 02-10-2011 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 02-11-2011, 12:27 AM
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standpipe construction

thanks Ndutton, the 316 listed in McMaster Carr was 316L for low carbon and I think that alloy is very corrosion resistant. For my hot exhaust section, one 4 inch nipple, one 3 1/2 inch nipple and two elbows the cost was about $40, cheap enough once you consider the labor involved. I will stick with the thinner schedule 40.
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:59 PM
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Tom,

The failure of the stainless in only one particular area of the hot section and not others is most interesting.

Regarding your new brass hot section, for reasons unknown to me it's non compliant with ABYC standards, section P-1, table 1 found on page 6 of the following attachment. According to them, after the water injection point you're good with brass but not before. Maybe something to do with strength/heat issues as you mentioned.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Marine/D...012/234864.pdf
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Last edited by ndutton; 02-13-2011 at 12:05 AM.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:25 AM
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As Tom has discovered and correctly reported the environment in the hot section indeed all the way back to the flange is anything but chemical vapor free. That is why it is of utmost importance to construct hot sections from materials as closely resembling the manifold as possible. This means black iron is the #1 choice.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 02-13-2011 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 02-13-2011, 08:18 AM
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"A machinist friend has offered to recreate the original structure , using common black pipe , for next to nothing , and I accepted."

The above is from my thread on Standpipe autopsy. I am feeling rather brilliant this morning. Never mind that I made my choice based on economy; I like to think that it was my inner metallurgist speaking.
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Old 02-13-2011, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indigo View Post
I own a Tartan 34 and have converted the exhaust system to a Vetus Waterlift. The hot exhaust rises above the waterline and makes a 180 degree turn into the Vetus. Raw water is injected straight down via one leg of a tee which creates the last 90 degree bend in the hot section. I had installed all 316 stainless about 5 years ago and it consisted of a 90 degree ell at the top of the vertical hot section, a 6" nipple horizontally outboard to the "side" leg of the water injection tee, and a 6" nipple down to the hose that connected to the Vetus. All of the hot section was well lagged with 1" thick Calcium Silicate except for the side of the tee away from the "side" leg (I just could not get to it except to apply some fiberglass cloth). I thought I was finished worrying about my exhaust system.

WRONG! Last year I discovered exhaust gasses and steam coming from the cabinetry around the hot exhaust. To my absolute horror, the stainless tee had rotted through the side away from the "side" leg. There was nothing but scale holding it together! The horizontal 6" nipple was not in much better shape. The 90 degree ell was OK. The vertical 6" nipple was OK.

Stainless steel does not like to be in a hot environment with chlorides. If the steel is stressed, either mechanically or thermally, you can quickly get what the metallurgist call Intergranular Stress Corrosion Cracking. I figured I was OK with my design as all of the raw seawater was downstream of the stainless. I think two separate problems came into play. 1) The tee was not uniformly insulated and thus was under a lot of thermal stress when hot (the side leg was much hotter than the opposite side) 2) Chlorides would rise up into the tee and horizontal nipple during cooldown. I think I had assumed that any vapor that rose up out of the Vetus would be just pure water vapor but I was very wrong.

At any rate, I was not about to put stainless back in the system. I went back and forth between schedule 80 steel and schedule 80 brass. I ended up going with the brass. It is not particularly strong at the elevated exhaust temperatures but then again it does not really need to be. I also insulated much better, this time with 1" flexible silica insulation. Time will tell how this holds up. I plan to put a small mirror down through the water injection connection in a year or to see what things look like on the inside.


Tom Stevens - Indigo
Tom

If you still have the original bronze standpipe, maybe you could revert to
it. I had my bronze standpipe cleaned 12 years ago, installed new black
iron pipe, and it has been problem free ever since. I know that you
have a rear exiting exhaust rerouting, would the standpipe still be compatible
with your rerouted exhaust?

Regards

Art
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Old 02-13-2011, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indigo View Post
I own a Tartan 34 and have converted the exhaust system to a Vetus Waterlift. The hot exhaust rises above the waterline and makes a 180 degree turn into the Vetus. Raw water is injected straight down via one leg of a tee which creates the last 90 degree bend in the hot section. I had installed all 316 stainless about 5 years ago and it consisted of a 90 degree ell at the top of the vertical hot section, a 6" nipple horizontally outboard to the "side" leg of the water injection tee, and a 6" nipple down to the hose that connected to the Vetus. All of the hot section was well lagged with 1" thick Calcium Silicate except for the side of the tee away from the "side" leg (I just could not get to it except to apply some fiberglass cloth). I thought I was finished worrying about my exhaust system.

WRONG! Last year I discovered exhaust gasses and steam coming from the cabinetry around the hot exhaust. To my absolute horror, the stainless tee had rotted through the side away from the "side" leg. There was nothing but scale holding it together! The horizontal 6" nipple was not in much better shape. The 90 degree ell was OK. The vertical 6" nipple was OK.

Stainless steel does not like to be in a hot environment with chlorides. If the steel is stressed, either mechanically or thermally, you can quickly get what the metallurgist call Intergranular Stress Corrosion Cracking. I figured I was OK with my design as all of the raw seawater was downstream of the stainless. I think two separate problems came into play. 1) The tee was not uniformly insulated and thus was under a lot of thermal stress when hot (the side leg was much hotter than the opposite side) 2) Chlorides would rise up into the tee and horizontal nipple during cooldown. I think I had assumed that any vapor that rose up out of the Vetus would be just pure water vapor but I was very wrong.

At any rate, I was not about to put stainless back in the system. I went back and forth between schedule 80 steel and schedule 80 brass. I ended up going with the brass. It is not particularly strong at the elevated exhaust temperatures but then again it does not really need to be. I also insulated much better, this time with 1" flexible silica insulation. Time will tell how this holds up. I plan to put a small mirror down through the water injection connection in a year or to see what things look like on the inside.


Tom Stevens - Indigo

Tom, wondering if it was straight 316 or 316(L)?

Also, were there any welded sections in the tee or was it a cast piece?

Cheers!
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Old 04-14-2011, 06:45 AM
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Smile stand pipe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S View Post
Our 1969 Pearson 35 still has the copper standpipe which I believe to be original equipment, although our late model A4 is probably not original to the boat. There's a post from late 2008, I think, that diagrams how the standpipe system works. We've had no trouble with it and to my knowledge neither did the PO. Having said that, knock on wood.
mark i also have a 35 p its 76 model is it possible to get a picture of your system so i can try to craft a system like yours mine has a home made exhaust from the broker i bought it thru thanks only if its not to much trouble art.
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Old 04-14-2011, 08:54 AM
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Well crap - I was just about to order stainless pipe to make a hot section
Is there any such thing as BRONZE pipe and fittings or is it all brass?
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:13 AM
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Is this a standpipe????
Attached Images
 

Last edited by urchin; 06-15-2012 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urchin View Post
Is this a standpipe????
Is what a standpipe? No picture attached.

Aah, there it is. Yes, standpipe.
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Last edited by ndutton; 06-15-2012 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:45 AM
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Standpipes are the type of exhaust used in Tartan 30, 34. See the Moyer
catalog for a picture
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtJ View Post
Neil

Standpipes are the type of exhaust used in Tartan 30, 34. See the Moyer
catalog for a picture
Thanks Art. Urchin, did that answer your question??
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