Planning the new exhaust system to go with the "new" engine

[ILikeRust]

So last night, whilst seated at the very nice adult beverage serving area of a very nice lounge in a very nice hotel in downtown Los Angeles, enjoying a very nice adult beverage in the esteemed company of Mr. N. Dutton (who seems himself to be very nice), the subject of Atomic 4 engines and sailboats came up.

OK, actually, we pretty much didn't talk about anything other than A4s and sailboats.

Anyhow, as anyone who has been paying attention will know, I am nearing the completion of my total engine overhaul project (although it's looking like I'm going to have to open it up again to solve the lack of oil pressure problem).

Dr. Dutton inquired as to the exhaust system in my boat, and I informed him that I knew I was going to have to revise at least the hot section. I told him it currently had a Vetus waterlift muffler, at which point he suddenly recoiled in abject horror, overturned his bar stool, made the sign of the cross, threw a pinch of salt over his left shoulder, warded off the evil eye, uttered something that sounded like Latin but might have been ancient Sanskrit and asked the bar tender for some cloves of garlic.

Let's just say Neil "strongly advised" me to ditch the Vetus and highly recommended converting to a standpipe system if I have the space.

I think I probably do have the space.

So it looks like I'm (A) starting pretty much with a blank slate as far as what is going to be happening between the exhaust manifold and the transom through-hull and (II) about to spend some more money on the boat. Who'da thunk it?

So I guess what I'm looking for is pointers, tips, diagrams, drawings, step-by-step instructions, and cash donations.

I figgered I'd toss this out here just to get the discussion going.

Thankee.

[hanleyclifford]

If you have discussed this face to face with Dr. Dutton, you have probably already gotten some of the best input you will ever get. On the forum we have been around the barn a few times on this subject. I have to agree that if you have room (vertical rise) for it the standpipe is your better choice versus the water lift. If I ever change my system, however, I would go for the jacketed system as big and straight as possible. Batching out water with a waterlift is a waste of engine energy so any system that avoids it is a winner.

[Dave Neptune]

Lean on the good Dr. of Afourochronicological Catalina Gastro Relief he's done a quite a bit of research on the Catalina's.

Dave Neptune

[TomG]

Bill,

I just went from a decrepit water lift to the MMI standpipe and couldn't be more pleased. I have a Tartan 30, which are well suited for the standpipe, so when it came to replace the old waterlift, I bit the bullet and bought the MMI version for Tartan's. It truly is a wonderfully simple system and uses gravity to empty the stack rather than exhaust pressure. And like I tell my oldest son who has no apparent fear of death (NAFOD, we call him) "Gravity isn't just a good idea... it's the law.)

I think the particulars of your boat will decide how best (or if it is even possible) to use a standpipe. I'll be glad to share with you anything I've learned, but quite honestly, between the Tartan interior layout design and the MMI Standpipe for Tartans, it was really a tinkertoy exercise for me... the most difficult part was measuring the hot section and getting the pieces cut and threaded. Even that only took a half hour at Home Depot.

Other than engine performance, this setup gives me great piece of mind.

My Tartan Standpipe install thread

[ILikeRust]

I'm wondering if it will make it louder. Currently, the Vetus waterlift is pretty low, under the forward part of the cockpit. The hose then runs back under the cockpit and out the transom.

I'm envisioning the layout from memory (being that my boat is about 3,500 miles away right now) and I'm thinking the only place I would be able to sneak in the standpipe would be next to the cockpit, in one of the aft quarterberths/storage locker spaces. So the standpipe basically would be right up under/against the side of the cockpit.

Which makes me think it would be noisier in the cockpit when the engine is running than it was with the waterlift.

But I will have to actually get in there and take a good look at the whole situation. I like the idea of the standpipe.

[ILikeRust]

Lean on the good Dr. of Afourochronicological Catalina Gastro Relief he's done a quite a bit of research on the Catalina's.

Will that help me with my Pearson?

[ndutton]

Oh Brother! Layin' it on a little thick, aren't we?

As reported, I had a very lively and invigorating chat with Bill last night. Other bar patrons tried sitting within earshot but couldn't take more than a few minutes of our conversation before relocating themselves. Probably diesel guys.

But now that I've been 'outed' I wanted to elucidate further on my aversion to Vetus waterlifts. First, for those of us that have a Vetus, my apologies. This is not a slur on you or your boat, just my opinion and since I had a Vetus on my Westsail, I get to have an opinion.

I think of all the waterlift options out there, the Vetus has the lightest construction of them all, similar to the blow-molded cases that come from Harbor Freight Tools. As has been repeatedly reported here, they are the least tolerant of excessive heat or pressure.

Since he already experienced a water incursion up the A4 wazoo, I encouraged Bill to consider a standpipe if at all possible. There's no need to rehash its merits here. I'm glad to see he's considering it although he may have to sacrifice a quarter berth in the process. IMO, a small price to pay for a superior exhaust system.

My experience with standpipe systems on A4's, the standard combination on the Newport 30's during my tenure, is they're no louder than waterlift systems. The term 'waterlift muffler' has more to do with its location in the exhaust line than its function. Yeah, it muffles some but only as an unintended benefit.

And finally Hanley, the copper waterjacket system is truly sweet (Newport 41 experience) but it's cost could approach the value of the boat.

Enjoyed our chat Bill. Open invite to the rest of the forum visiting Southern California, the land of fruits and nuts, give a holler and we'll see if we can clear another bar.

edit: Dr. of Afourochronicological Catalina Gastro Relief? Sounds like some sort of A4 flatulence expert. I 'spose I've been called worse. My wifee read this thread and has excused herself to the throne room claiming gastrointestinal discomfort ("I think I'm gonna hurl!").

[gary randall]

Rust,
I have an industrial-strength, black-iron standpipe that was custom-built many years ago. The boat is a 1965, but I doubt that the muffler is that old.
I was planning on replacing it last year, but after cleaning some of the rust off, I decided that it's probably good for at least a couple more years.
Before deciding to keep it, I made a preliminary inquiry at a local welding shop and found that it would have been pretty reasonable to have one made up. (Much less than $200, I believe.)
So, when it finally does go, I plan to copy what has worked so well for so long.
As for its muffling ability, it makes the A4 pretty quiet, even though it runs vertically right up against the cockpit. No problem there.

[gary gerber]

I agree concerning the Vetus blow molded waterlift muffler, I wasn't comfortable considering it when I rebuilt my exhaust system however Vetus does have the Waterlock NLP model which offers adjustable fittings. I installed this unit in the lazarrete of my 1970 Morgan 33 over six years ago.
I have a s.s. riser pipe at the manifold where the exhaust and water join then travel through a 7'+ exhaust hose into the lazarrete. I did not have room around the engine to install the Waterlock unit or any other type.

This system has worked perfectly. I have mentioned before in the forum that this installation was an article in DIY BOAT OWNER.

[hanleyclifford]

Just a quick word in defense of the now harborfreight quality Vetus waterlock. I have indeed had an overheating event which led to a leak, the bad news. The good news is they can be repaired with West System very quickly. I now carry a spare; they are relatively cheap. But I do long for a nice straight, safe, efficient copper jacketed system (maybe if I ever win the lottery)

[ndutton]

Follow-up

A quick check of prices with P-Yacht (Vetus) and West Marine (Centek) showed the filament wound fiberglass Centek waterlift is 30% less than the Vetus of the same size.

Anybody remember this thread?

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1430

edit: I'm referring to the Vetus Type LP commonly seen on our installations.


and for comparison, the Centek

[hanleyclifford]

Looking at the two brands together you can see the superior efficiency of the Vetus. Both inlet and outlet are 45 degrees (if you lose the stupid swivel and put in a straight barb). For most of us this makes the plumbing have fewer angles - very desirable.

[ndutton]

FYI,
The Centek Vernalift series is available in a number of port configurations and shapes

http://www.centekindustries.com/vernalift.html

[hanleyclifford]

Neil - I had a look at the various Centek configurations. Any one of them if used on my boat would add another "net" 90 bend. The value of the 45 degree entry/exit is unique to the Vetus. The constraints of a riser demand two 90 degree bends right away. What we do thereafter should always be seeking to minimize bends. I can appreciate the fact that the Centek is a sturdier unit, but I am willing to pay the price (risk?) associated with the "straighter" Vetus.

[ndutton]

No worries, everybody's got their priorities.