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Old 01-23-2013, 10:51 PM
gmilburn gmilburn is offline
 
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Exhaust Standpipe

I need some advice. My Standpipe has rusted out at the bottom and I'm hoping to build a new one from off the shelf pipe and pipe fittings. Does anyone know what this beast looks like in the inside? Seems the water enters in the lower part of the standpipe, while the exhaust enters the bottom, exiting near the top. Surely the exhaust doesn't push the water up without some type of baffles or separator. Help please. A simple diagram might help me. Is it crazy to think I can make one myself? Oh BTW, it is on an Ericson 29. Thanks in advance.
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Last edited by gmilburn; 03-14-2013 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:53 PM
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:41 AM
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The "new version" standpipe is the best system there is - certainly better than the "old version" or the waterlift muffler - as long as the boat has the vertical space to accommodate it. Simple, inexpensive, stays cool, stays dry, doesn't corrode. Mine doesn't get particularly hot and isn't wrapped in fiberglass.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:59 AM
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Exhaust elements

Post #5 in this thread has some pictures of the inside of a "standpipe" (I don't think this is the correct term for what I am showing, more like a "cooling muffler") illustrating the second drawing called "new version".

You can see the deflector cap in the top housing where the cooling water enters from above, the central tube in the bottom housing where the exhaust enters and what the assembly looks like when put together.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:57 AM
gmilburn gmilburn is offline
 
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Thanks all, I now have a plan!
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:33 AM
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If you have room for it, this is the way to go:
http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...=EXHT_01.0_527
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:03 PM
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Like Al says, it's going to be hard to beat Moyer's standpipe - if you have the vertical space for it. I replaced a rusted-out water lift in my Tartan 30 with the MMI Stainless Steel Standpipe two years ago and couldn't be more pleased. Since the exhaust water drains out using gravity and is above the waterline on all points of sail, it is very improbable that I could flood the engine through the exhaust. Having installed the MMI version, I can attest without reservation that this is an extremely robust yet elegant design. I wouldn't say that at the $495 price tag that this standpipe is inexpensive, but would wholeheartedly say it is an excellent value. I figured my time and expense designing my own standpipe would yield a more expensive and less thoughtful product than buying Don's standpipe. After installing it, I am certain anything I built that was high quality as Don's would cost me twice as much and work half as well.

New MMI "Tartan" SS Standpipe Install
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Last edited by TomG; 01-31-2013 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:04 PM
toddster toddster is offline
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Please post any tips on how you extract that beast from your e29.

I have the identical set-up except mine rusted out at the top. (The rust all cut loose after an acid flush.) Unfortunately, I just finished installing a water heater to the left of that enclosure and relocated the heat exchanger to a panel attached to the front of the enclosure. Not looking forward to ripping it all back out again.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:47 PM
gmilburn gmilburn is offline
 
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Freeing the Beast

OK, I once again want to call upon the collective knowledge of those on this site. I have unwrapped the fiberglass insulation of the hot section of my A4 exhaust and clearly, I'm going to have to use more brain power than man power to get it off the manifold without twisting off the bolt heads. Suggestions? I have soaked the bolt with PB Blaster and ample amounts of WD40--all to no avail. I believe that there is so much rust that neither penetrate has found its way into the threads. I am careful not to overpower the bolt, as I believe I could easily twist the bolts off (and do NOT want to drill out the remains). I saw some freezing aerosol spray at the autozone store, which claims can freeze nuts and bolts and break the rust holding them together loose. Has anyone tried such a product? Or have other suggestions? Maybe alternate heat (via torch) and cold (via freeze spray)? Any help would definitely be appreciated.
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Last edited by gmilburn; 03-14-2013 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:00 PM
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I don't know how much you pay yourself for an hourly rate, but in your situation I would get the whole thing off at the manifold and start from scratch. Black iron pipe is dirt cheap and a new flange is worth the money.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:03 PM
Sony2000 Sony2000 is offline
 
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Please start with a mix of 50/50, acetone and ATF to loosen the bolts. There must be a crowd of guys here wanting to see the results. The bolts look pretty far gone.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:31 PM
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Hanley - I think he's saying he's trying to get the flange bolts off without twisting off the bolt heads.

In any case, I'm with Hanley - get the whole thing off, flange and all, and start anew.

As far as getting those rusty old bolts out, yeah... it's a bear.

Forget WD-40 - it's useless as a rust-releasing, penetrating lubricant.

The best commercially-produced penetrating lubricant I have found is Kroil, available at www.kanolabs.com.

A judicious application of concentrated heat can help - as from a MAPP torch or, better yet, an acetylene torch. Your typical Bernz-O-Matic propane torch won't put out enough heat to have any helpful effect.

I would be quite tempted to use my angle grinder with a metal-cutting disc to cut those bolt heads off, then use my Kroil and a bit screwdriver as a pry bar to get that flange off. Then I would deal with what's left of the bolts in the manifold.

Even with all that, you very well might end up having to cut the bolts off and drill them out of the manifold (meaning you would first have to remove the manifold.

Don't Ask Me How I Know This ("DAMHIKT").

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Old 01-25-2013, 06:41 PM
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First thing I'd do is get out the Sawzall and whack off the hot pipe an inch from the flange. Should make anything else you do easier.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:14 PM
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I did as Neil suggests then made two cuts with the blade in the pipe at 2 o'clock and 10 o'clock. Being careful with the angle and stopping the cut just short of the flange. Used a punch and beat the center, 10 to 2 piece, down and then collapsed the rest of the pipe and removed it from the flange.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marian Claire View Post
I did as Neil suggests then made two cuts with the blade in the pipe at 2 o'clock and 10 o'clock. Being careful with the angle and stopping the cut just short of the flange. Used a punch and beat the center, 10 to 2 piece, down and then collapsed the rest of the pipe and removed it from the flange.
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:31 AM
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I've tried the freeze spray, both on it's own and alternating it with heat from a MAAP torch. I found it totally ineffective.

Kroil or Acetone/ATF mix are your two best bets for penetrant, as others here have suggested.

I've also found that impact forces can help, but don't go overboard. Light taps on the bolt heads with a hammer will produce shock waves that can help the penetrant do it's thing. An impact driver can also be effective, but only of its a relatively weak one, like the battery powered ones. (Where's a sonic screwdriver when you need it! ) The pneumatic ones are powerfull enough to twist the head right off unless they have an adjustable force setting. In any case, just use short bursts, and if they don't produce any movement, use heat and more soak time.

Patience and time are the key here to a successful outcome. Good luck.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:35 AM
gmilburn gmilburn is offline
 
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Crazy Question, probably know the answer

While I was shopping for black pipe for my hot exhaust side at Lowes last evening, I saw all the 6 inch PVC pipe and fittings that could easily be configured into a water lift muffler. But I expect that it wouldn't withstand the exhaust heat. Anyone know for sure? What is the temp of the exiting exhaust? Thanks for replying to my wild ass idea!
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmilburn View Post
While I was shopping for black pipe for my hot exhaust side at Lowes last evening, I saw all the 6 inch PVC pipe and fittings that could easily be configured into a water lift muffler. But I expect that it wouldn't withstand the exhaust heat. Anyone know for sure? What is the temp of the exiting exhaust? Thanks for replying to my wild ass idea!
gmilburn,

I think using PVC is a bad idea. PVC is a thermoplastic and I know from first hand experience that PVC becomes quite flexible when heat is applied. Even more problematic is that when heat is applied to PVC (above 70°C), the chloride begins to break down and this process is self-sustaining, i.e., autocatalytic.

It might work for a while, but I would be seriously concerned about CO poisoning from a leak that would soon develop. I would also count on it failing at the most crucial moment. PVC pipe and fittings of the diameter you need are pretty expensive. For comparison, I found this Vetus at pyatch for just over a boat unit: Vetus-LP30-waterlock



If it were my boat, I'd save somewhere else and spend the savings here. As Dave Neptune says, "Do it right, cry once."
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:12 PM
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Bill...thanks for the link...I finally bought some Kroil.
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Old 01-31-2013, 12:17 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
I don't know how much you pay yourself for an hourly rate, but in your situation I would get the whole thing off at the manifold and start from scratch. Black iron pipe is dirt cheap and a new flange is worth the money.
Yup.
This is what I did on my last hot section rebuild.
I got the flange off the manifold and took the whole mess to a machine shop. It was an automotive machine shop but he had the equipment to work on 1 1/4" pipe threads. He removed the stub from the flange and cleaned up the threads and cracked the pipe off the injection part and cleaned up those threads also. Only charged me $35 bucks and it was done in four days.
Before I took the hot section to the machine shop I went to the hardware store and matched up the necessary plumbing parts and then drew a diagram of how it went together. Piece of cake.

TRUE GRIT

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Old 01-31-2013, 06:50 PM
gmilburn gmilburn is offline
 
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Thanks John for the tip of removing the whole exhaust manifold and taking it to a machine shop. Do the bolts holding the exhaust manifold come out easier than the ones holding the hot section to the exhaust manifold or do they seize to the block? I have bought the Kroil and intend to soak the bolts this weekend. I'll keep everyone posted. And Ill check out the Vetus muffler.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:04 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Hydrophilic
I took the flang off the manifold. The manifold stayed on the engine. Sorry for the miscommunication. I was commenting on Hanley's post. Guess I wasn't clear.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:55 AM
gmilburn gmilburn is offline
 
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Standpipe Rebuild

Hi all,
Thought I would take a moment to update the group.

First off, I used a sawsall to cut the pipe coming off the exhaust manifold about one inch from the manifold flange.

Then I had to get the bolts out of the exhaust manifold. Kroil is excellent at creeping into tight threads and loosening rusted bolts. I squirted it liberally, then waited a day or two and squirted it again, and then bought a 6 point socket to fit the bolt head perfectly--and walla--both broke loose.

Then I went to a custom machine shop with the old rusty standpipe and the E-29 drawings from the Ericson site. They first refused my project--but after challenging them as to whether they didnt have the skill set to do the project--the guy puffed his chest out and said they could do such a project easily. Then I dropped the fact that I was restoring an old sailboat--and I would pay them well for the project, they agreed. A week and $220 later, I had a new standpipe.

Ive attached a couple of photos for those that might like to see what resides under all the fiberglass or asbestos insulation.

Next is the project of coupling the two pieces together via the pipe union and recovering the hot section with new fiberglass tape.

Most interesting is the place where the pipe rusted out--I would have thought it would be at the bottom of standpipe rather than the exhaust riser--as without a drain plug in the bottom--water always stands in the stand pipe. Perhaps its because this has always been a fresh water boat.

Regardless, I will keep you posted on mounting the beast--my weekend project.
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Last edited by gmilburn; 04-03-2013 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:24 AM
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Nice work.

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Old 03-14-2013, 01:44 PM
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Weird. Mine was an identical (freshwater) unit, but it rusted out at the top of the standpipe. All of the real rot was underneath the little toque of insulation, which I assume means that the insulation was trapping moisture in there. It's also possible that the insulation caused higher pipe temperatures, but the number of hours that the engine was running, compared to time sitting at the dock, would have been very small.



However, the whole hot-section had the identical kind of insulation, so I dunno.

Last edited by toddster; 03-14-2013 at 01:47 PM.
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