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Old 05-05-2010, 06:08 PM
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I love this forum...rubber in the 90 degree fitting

Hi all,

I was having severe overheating issues after rebuilding the top end of my engine with all of your fantastic helpl. I power flushed, acid flushed and did everything. Still...overheating.

I spent 3 hours reading posts here last night and today I pulled the waterpump. I bought the boat a few months ago and as such have no idea what transpired prior to me buying her. Lo and behold I took the exit 90 degree fitting off of the pump and found this... see photo attached. Gee...do you think that was my problem? I'm betting so...



You guys are great...Thanks...Rob
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:12 PM
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Those look like broken-off pieces of the vanes of a water pump impeller.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:12 PM
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Impeller bits? Let us know if that fixes this pesky problem.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:49 PM
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Good news, Bad news...

Robh2,
The good news is that those pieces most likely caused your overheating problem. The bad news is that your engine won't know what to do with all of that nice cool water!...
congrats, Tom
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:30 PM
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Now that you have done all that work - have you changed your impeller yet?
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67c&ccorv View Post
Now that you have done all that work - have you changed your impeller yet?
Duuh, yea...now my engine is an air conditioner...
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:20 PM
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Nice work Rob.

I am getting to ready to rely on the A4 to get the boat back to the marina to haul & put the stick back in...No alternative there!!
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Old 05-06-2010, 07:35 AM
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We had the same thing, but only discovered it after rebuilding the water pump. The increased pressure blasted impeller bits out of all kinds of unlikely places. If you have found these three, better check all of the hoses and especially all of the fittings, thermostat cover, etc...
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Old 05-07-2010, 06:49 PM
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Will do.

So far though all is well. Ran her hard yesterday with a 25 knot headwind at full throttle for about 45 minutes and the highest temp was just a needle's width over 180.
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Old 05-07-2010, 06:51 PM
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Hey 67c&ccorv, I wasn't being a flippant by my "duuh" remark. What I meant was, yea, better do that for sure. When I read it out loud it sounded wrong. Sorry for bad wording...
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH2 View Post
Hey 67c&ccorv, I wasn't being a flippant by my "duuh" remark. What I meant was, yea, better do that for sure. When I read it out loud it sounded wrong. Sorry for bad wording...
Hey no sweat - just wanted to make sure all the bases were covered.

You can bet that somewhere out there in the Atomic 4 history someone has discovered the very same piece of impeller in their cooling system but didn't think to check the impeller in the water pump!
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Old 05-09-2010, 10:54 PM
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Elation turns to disappointment. I now have runaway temperature problems. Also, I'm getting a lot of steam in 70 degree weather.

I pulled everything off today and found no more lodged impeller parts. My thermostat is 3 weeks old (Moyer aftermarket kit with spacer and ball valve). I tapped my exhaust flange today and measured the back pressure. It was .5. That's within range I believe. I did a Muriatic Acid flush last week. I also have it sitting in a vinegar bath tonight. I did a high pressure flush two days ago. I rebuilt the head last month so I know all the block ports and head ports are clear. I also pulled the water jacket plate behind the alternator when I did the head and cleaned it out. It had minimal detritus.

I've read about everything on Cooling on the site by now I think. My suspicion now is that maybe my impeller is not the right height. I replaced my original impeller to be proactive with an impeller I found on the boat. Having had the boat only a few months, I've found a lot of spare parts, none of which I purchased. It's completely plausible that the previous owner purchased inferior replacement parts and I'm now sticking them in. What alerted me to water pump issues is that I had a hard time sucking the vinegar in. My bucket was the same height as the flywheel. The pump only had to pull the vinegar up about 12”, out of the bucket and into my “T” at my raw water thru-hull. I actually had to use one of those cheap drill attachment pumps to push the vinegar along the hose. How strong a suction does the water pump create anyway? How much elevation should it be able to draw?

I was thinking about drilling the hole in the water injector inside the water jacket side plate but can’t find a thread telling exactly what to do. I’ve found someone saying they did it but can’t find specific directions. If anyone has that link I’d appreciate getting it.

I still don't know why I have so much steam all of a sudden. I checked the torque on my head and it was fine. All of the bolts were 35 ft/lbs. Could I have blown my new graphite head gaskets in a runaway overheating?
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Old 05-09-2010, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH2 View Post
It had minimal detritus.
Minimal detritus. Nice, I like that.

You may be on to something with the poor draw by the raw water pump. I routinely flush with fresh water through a T on the pump intake. With the engine at idle I'm guessing I draw 4 gallons out of a bucket on the cabin sole in about 60 seconds. Yours sounds way less than that.

If you're not blocked either before or after the pump, it must be the pump itself and there's not much to it other than the impeller.
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Old 05-10-2010, 12:31 AM
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It must be the impeller. I pulled the water pump last week and inspected it completely. I replaced a slightly scored shaft two days ago but not the seals. If the seals were bad I'd expect weeping water but have none. I don't think I pump more than 1/2 to 1 gallon per minute if that. Today it stopped completely which is why I assisted it with a drill pump.

Baltimore Sailor wrote about a slightly dimensionally imperfect impeller. It sounds plausible that I have that issue. I may have a gap between the impeller and the cap plate which I assume would kill the pump force pressure in the chamber that has the exit hole.

I can't wait until I can stop working on the engine and actually do some sailing.

I'll report back in a day or so.
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:42 AM
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It could also be a worn shoe inside the pump--that's the cam that's inside the pump housing that helps compress the impeller vanes through part of the impeller rotation.

There's a slight chance the pump housing itself could be worn. You have no idea how badly it's been treated over the years.

I realize you've already sunk some bucks into it with the shaft, but if you want to fix this problem fast I'd suggest replacing your pump with a new Moyer pump, then deciding if the old pump is worth further troubleshooting.
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Old 05-10-2010, 11:43 AM
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bench test

Boy, it sure sounds to me like you still have blockage.
I just took off my 40-year-old pump that had a very worn shaft, bad seals, worn cam, and worn cover plate and housing. It still pumped fine, it just leaked all my antifreeze through the weep hole.

I think if you test your drill pump at home with a bucket, and got a baseline for how much it will pump and then hooked it up to engine system, you could tell if something was still blocked.

Conversely, if you made a simple adapter for you drill motor to drive the flange pump, you could test the engine pump at home too. probably a rubber hose slipped over the shaft and spun by the drill motor.

Bench testing both with a 110 volt drill will at the same time will give a good comparison.
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Old 05-11-2010, 08:16 AM
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Rob, Make sure that Yanmar riser is not pluged and restricting flow.
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Old 05-11-2010, 03:36 PM
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I might have missed this info. Have you checked upstream of the pump. Removed the hose on the thru-hull and checked for flow. Do you have a raw water strainer? Have you bypassed the T- valve? I had the temp jump from normal to 180 in a few minutes on two different occasions. First time it turned out to be sea grass clogging the T-valve and the second was grass in the intake for the thru-hull. Hope it is that simple. Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:04 PM
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All very good points made...
Tenders is right, as long as you're thinking of replacing that impeller, check the cam-shoe too. It's as important as anything in there.
Or maybe sink the $$ into an MMI 502 pump? (They're very nice!)
BUT...
What puzzles me is that you ran hard for 45 minutes with no overheating.
That really points more to a blockage as LAT and Dan said.
AND like something that is on again, off again like an impeller particle. Since you've already checked downstream of the pump for blockage/flow;
what about your line coming in TO the pump?
Maybe try a VIRGIN piece of hose straight to the pump from the bucket?
If you get better suckage, you've identified the problem is upstream of the pump.
(A quick and less costly test)
IF you get the same 1/2 to 1 gal flow, you can start on the pump itself again?
And/or re-check the passages yet again downstream of the pump...
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:11 PM
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Interesting. After posting above, I found this from Don in the FAQ's...


FAQ: Cooling System
We have a 1972 Columbia 30 with a RWC A4 that was rebuilt in 1997 and is now overheating when at cruising speed (1700). I recently did an acid flush (as per your manual), but the engine still overheats, though not as much as prior to the flush. During the flush, it took about 5 minutes to empty the acid bucket which would indicate blockages in the cooling passages (impeller and thermostat are fine). How do I go about manually cleaning the passages that I can access without removing and stripping the engine down to have everything chemically cleaned out?

If I'm doing the math correctly, you're only able to pump one gallon per minute through your cooling system. In most cases, blockages of this magnitude are not the result of general clogging of cooling jackets, but rather serious localized restrictions within a fitting.

Since you're experiencing a restriction to total flow, I would remove the hose to the inlet of your thermostat housing (directly above the starter) and run the engine for a few seconds. If you have good flow there, reconnect the hose and remove the one from behind the manifold and run the engine for a few more seconds. If you have good flow there, reconnect the hose and remove the end of the hose that connects to the exhaust system and run the engine again. By this process, you should be able to identify the segment of your system that is blocked, and limit the fittings to check.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:38 PM
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Lot's of good suggestions here. I've already pulled every part I can off of the engine and inspected it for blockage. None upstream in any fitting and no exhaust blockage. I did an exhaust pressure test and it was fine at .5.

What I did today was go down and flush out the vinegar and I pulled out the spare (new looking) impeller that I found in a box on the boat and installed last week. Lo and behold it's thinner than the old impeller I pulled out to replace it with. There was nothing really severely wrong with the impeller in there but since I found 2 unused ones, why tempt fate on a boat that sat fallow for 15 months before I bought her when the owner did unexpectedly? Baltimore Sailor mentioned in a thread that he once had an impeller that was undersized (under 7/8") and suspected it was causing inefficient pumping.

Here is a photo of what I found and some measurements.



I'm ordering a new one today but I ran the engine hard and didn't get runaway overheating. I was in the slip as it's raining hard here today but that was a good sign. My other tests in the slip produced runaway temps in the slip also. Finally, my back plate is worn down maybe 1/8th of a mm. That doesn't sound like much but combine that with the undersized impeller and you have a gap and a loss of compression in the housing I think. Maybe Don knows how much gap is deadly but I hope I've found the problem.

I hope my troubles are over for now. I'll report back once I get the new impeller and back plate installed and do a sea trial.

Thanks for the suggestions...
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH2 View Post
Lot's of good suggestions here. I've already pulled every part I can off of the engine and inspected it for blockage. None upstream in any fitting and no exhaust blockage. I did an exhaust pressure test and it was fine at .5.

What I did today was go down and flush out the vinegar and I pulled out the spare (new looking) impeller that I found in a box on the boat and installed last week. Lo and behold it's thinner than the old impeller I pulled out to replace it with. There was nothing really severely wrong with the impeller in there but since I found 2 unused ones, why tempt fate on a boat that sat fallow for 15 months before I bought her when the owner did unexpectedly? Baltimore Sailor mentioned in a thread that he once had an impeller that was undersized (under 7/8") and suspected it was causing inefficient pumping.

Here is a photo of what I found and some measurements.



I'm ordering a new one today but I ran the engine hard and didn't get runaway overheating. I was in the slip as it's raining hard here today but that was a good sign. My other tests in the slip produced runaway temps in the slip also. Finally, my back plate is worn down maybe 1/8th of a mm. That doesn't sound like much but combine that with the undersized impeller and you have a gap and a loss of compression in the housing I think. Maybe Don knows how much gap is deadly but I hope I've found the problem.

I hope my troubles are over for now. I'll report back once I get the new impeller and back plate installed and do a sea trial.

Thanks for the suggestions...
HAH! HAH!!! I say.

This is exactly the same situation I have with my impeller replacement.

My old impeller has exactly the same relationship to the new ones as RobH is seeing. I tried making the new one work a couple of times, but it's just not as efficient, nor does it self-prime as the old one will. The time I forgot to open the raw water thru-hull for a few seconds led to no water coming out of the exhaust at all -- a problem I never had with the older, larger impeller.

I wonder if there's any solution beyond getting a new Oberdorfer pump?
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:08 PM
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very incriminating photos!

Rob and Baltimore,
I have changed many impellers in virtually all of the popular impeller pump brands and they all have one thing in common, there is always a small amount of "crush" when tightening the cover down. That short impeller is certainly bleeding off at least some of the pumps pressure. Toss it!
Tom
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:31 PM
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Yep, I have two going in the trash...ouch...that's $60. But, its a bad $60 so good bye. No crush for any of my impellers. They all fit flush.

I hope my problem is solved once I get the new impeller and end plate on later this week. I've had the boat for a few months now and have only sailed once because of the engine problems. All the wind we've had lately and I've been missing it. It will be fantastic to actually be able to do some sailing instead of motorhead activities. I have a new impeller shaft and I installed the fancy grease pump from Moyer. My last resort will be to buy an entire new pump (instead of going for the seals and cam shoe) but I'll hope that I'm OK now.

More later,

Rob
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:18 AM
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RobH, the problem is that I've already received two new impellers from Moyer and they were both "short." One was even sent gratis from Moyer after my discussion of the issue a couple of weeks ago.

Don says the spec is 7/8". I think the two of us have pretty well established that our vintage of water pump wants something more along the lines of 15/16" or maybe 29/32".

The new impellers just aren't going to cut it for us.
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