Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Exhaust System

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26   IP: 174.65.53.170
Old 04-25-2011, 01:14 AM
jpian0923's Avatar
jpian0923 jpian0923 is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 976
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I hate to be an alarmist but with the new water injection point you have alot more hot section. I would double wrap it. Fire on a boat is much more dangerous than water in a cylinder. I'm a pessimist, but...safety first!
__________________
"Jim"
S/V "Ahoi"
1967 Islander 29
Harbor Island, San Diego
2/7/67 A4 Engine Block date
Reply With Quote
  #27   IP: 128.183.140.38
Old 04-25-2011, 04:00 PM
edwardc's Avatar
edwardc edwardc is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 2,509
Thanks: 153
Thanked 595 Times in 388 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpian0923 View Post
I hate to be an alarmist but with the new water injection point you have alot more hot section. I would double wrap it. Fire on a boat is much more dangerous than water in a cylinder. I'm a pessimist, but...safety first!
When I did mine, I overlapped the wrapping by a full 50% instead of the tiny amount recommended in the instructions. This resulted in a double-thickness of the wrapping everywhere, consuming the entire roll of wrapping material on this one stack.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed
1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Reply With Quote
  #28   IP: 75.30.247.91
Old 04-26-2011, 06:29 PM
Crash Crash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 76
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Jim,
The MMI exhaust wrap was long enough to get double wrappings on the top parts of the hot section as Edwardc pointed out. I have to admit though I did lower the first pipe by 2 inches so the space at the top (to the bottom of the deck) increased from 2 inches to 4 inches. On the trial run the deck warmed up to the point I was ready and armed with a fire extinguisher...just in case. So with 4 inches of clearance to the decking and double wrapped hot section I'm good to go!

Okay next repair issue....... (remote radio controls now works!)

Crash...(no burning)
__________________

1979 C&C36 'Dionysus'
Reply With Quote
  #29   IP: 98.248.12.160
Old 04-27-2011, 08:57 PM
tartansailboat tartansailboat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 100
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
another myster part

I have a 1972 T30 with the Moyer SS water lift muffler. The PO had a leaking copper standpipe which was replaced by a "butcher" right after the survey. He installed a Volvo water lift muffler which never fit right. When I had the mast pulled, I had the yard install the Moyer SS water lift muffler, the custom standpipe was not available at the time. Unit ran super for three years.

First sail of this season, engine sounded like it was lugging, not revving up properly, low power, starting to overheat. Limped back to the dock and saw that the exhaust line from the output of the water lift had blown off, filling up the bilge, temperature immediately lowered. I suspect that there is a blockage after the water lift muffler creating overpressure, hence the engine symptoms and finally blowing off the exhaust line. With the exhaust line off, plenty of water coming out of the water lift muffler so I don't think the problem is with the muffler or the engine, exhaust, etc.

But between the water lift muffler and the thru hull ( a short distance since both the engine and thru hull are mid ships) there is a black plastic part, double cone shaped like two ice cream cones stuck together at the wide part. It is about 10 inches long and about 4 inches in diameter. Any idea what this is and if it is blocked, can I remove it and just run the exhaust to the thru hull.

I recall a nice explanation about the difference between the stand pipe and the water lift muffler, is this part meant for standpipes and not needed for water lifts?? I will try to get photos tomorrow.

Thanks in advance. Sorry for rambling.
Reply With Quote
  #30   IP: 70.27.58.76
Old 04-27-2011, 09:33 PM
67c&ccorv's Avatar
67c&ccorv 67c&ccorv is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London, ON
Posts: 1,559
Thanks: 4
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tartansailboat View Post
I have a 1972 T30 with the Moyer SS water lift muffler. The PO had a leaking copper standpipe which was replaced by a "butcher" right after the survey. He installed a Volvo water lift muffler which never fit right. When I had the mast pulled, I had the yard install the Moyer SS water lift muffler, the custom standpipe was not available at the time. Unit ran super for three years.

First sail of this season, engine sounded like it was lugging, not revving up properly, low power, starting to overheat. Limped back to the dock and saw that the exhaust line from the output of the water lift had blown off, filling up the bilge, temperature immediately lowered. I suspect that there is a blockage after the water lift muffler creating overpressure, hence the engine symptoms and finally blowing off the exhaust line. With the exhaust line off, plenty of water coming out of the water lift muffler so I don't think the problem is with the muffler or the engine, exhaust, etc.

But between the water lift muffler and the thru hull ( a short distance since both the engine and thru hull are mid ships) there is a black plastic part, double cone shaped like two ice cream cones stuck together at the wide part. It is about 10 inches long and about 4 inches in diameter. Any idea what this is and if it is blocked, can I remove it and just run the exhaust to the thru hull.

I recall a nice explanation about the difference between the stand pipe and the water lift muffler, is this part meant for standpipes and not needed for water lifts?? I will try to get photos tomorrow.

Thanks in advance. Sorry for rambling.

Sounds like you have muffler installed in that section - is it possible the muffler has become blocked?

Rodents/birds/mud wasps love to build nests in these small openings...you need to check it out.

Cheers!
Reply With Quote
  #31   IP: 72.45.54.12
Old 04-27-2011, 10:31 PM
TomG's Avatar
TomG TomG is offline
Afourian MVP Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kent Island, MD
Posts: 656
Thanks: 73
Thanked 93 Times in 53 Posts
Check valve, maybe?
__________________
Tom
"Patina"
1977 Tartan 30
Repowered with MMI A-4 2008
Reply With Quote
  #32   IP: 98.248.12.160
Old 04-27-2011, 10:43 PM
tartansailboat tartansailboat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 100
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I will try to pull off the hoses tomorrow and see what is blocked. I can blow through the hose that blew off the output of the muffler but there still could be some blockage causing high pressure at higher revs. If it is a muffler, can I do without it, just using the Moyer SS waterlift? If it is a check valve, then I probably need to replace it. thanks for the advice.

I gather, Tom, that you do not have such a device in your T30? Just a hose between the water lift muffler and the thru hull?
Reply With Quote
  #33   IP: 72.45.54.12
Old 04-27-2011, 11:34 PM
TomG's Avatar
TomG TomG is offline
Afourian MVP Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kent Island, MD
Posts: 656
Thanks: 73
Thanked 93 Times in 53 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tartansailboat View Post
I gather, Tom, that you do not have such a device in your T30? Just a hose between the water lift muffler and the thru hull?
I do not. I replaced my old water lift with the MMI S/S Standpipe for Tartans. I simply have a straight length of hose from the standpipe to the thru-hull. The previous exhaust system had a solid piece of hose from the vented-loop to the thru-hull. I will defer to the experts, but I think the check valves are used primarily on transom mounted exhaust ports to minimize water intrusion from following seas. As you know, our amidship exhaust port greatly reduces the possibility of water running up the exhaust, especially with the very high water drop possible with our boats. I don't know why you might have a check valve in your system, but I don't know why you would have a muffler either. I'm sure with a picture, the smart people here can tell you what you are dealing with.
__________________
Tom
"Patina"
1977 Tartan 30
Repowered with MMI A-4 2008
Reply With Quote
  #34   IP: 71.168.64.2
Old 04-28-2011, 06:39 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is online now
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,177
Thanks: 221
Thanked 65 Times in 50 Posts
I have a Tartan 34C with the original rebuilt bronze standpipe. There is
no other device in the path other than black iron pipe

Regards

Art
Reply With Quote
  #35   IP: 98.248.12.160
Old 04-28-2011, 10:45 AM
tartansailboat tartansailboat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 100
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanks Art and Tom, I am off today with my camera to take hoses apart.
Reply With Quote
  #36   IP: 98.248.12.160
Old 04-28-2011, 09:15 PM
tartansailboat tartansailboat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 100
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Tom and Art. I finally removed the exhaust section from the output of the Moyer SS water lift muffler to the thru hull including the mystery part which turns out to be a muffler, not a check valve. I can blow thru it but it may present a restriction at high revs. I tried to attach a photo but it would not upload, says the max file for JPEG is over 3 Meg and mine is well below that but no luck. Send me your e-mails, friedman33@comcast.net and I will send you the photo back channel.

There is a t34 down the dock and he has the original standpipe with the same muffler so at least Tartan included that for some boats. I still wonder if the standpipe is noiser than the more modern water lift mufflers so maybe it was needed. Certainly Don's sketch using his water lift muffler shows no additional muffler.

Of course Don's exhaust port was made for 2 inch ID hose, the yard put on 1 7/8 inch, I would love to see the arms on the guy who installed that hose with a steel internal wire. And the thru hull is 1 1/2 so I have some fitting to do.
Reply With Quote
  #37   IP: 74.110.198.83
Old 04-28-2011, 09:39 PM
ILikeRust's Avatar
ILikeRust ILikeRust is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Henrico, VA
Posts: 2,202
Thanks: 2
Thanked 23 Times in 21 Posts
If you want to post a photo, first upload it to a photo hosting site. I use Photobucket. Then you just post the link to the photo using the "insert image" tool in the menu bar above the message composing window.
__________________
- Bill T.
- Richmond, VA

Relentless pursuer of lost causes
Reply With Quote
  #38   IP: 209.124.198.180
Old 04-29-2011, 06:24 AM
Will Jacocks's Avatar
Will Jacocks Will Jacocks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Geismar, LA
Posts: 133
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I first downsize the photo when I export it from iPhoto and save it to a file/folder on the desktop. Then I can use that file for upload.
Reply With Quote
  #39   IP: 98.248.12.160
Old 04-29-2011, 07:18 AM
tartansailboat tartansailboat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 100
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I hope this works, the photobucket solution. Shown in the photo is the longer hose from the output of the Moyer SS water lift muffler (not the standpipe) to the original (1972) muffler, then the short hose to the thru hull. A dock neighbor with a 1970's T34 has the same muffler with his original standpipe while at least two other chat room folks, Tom and Art, say they have no extra muffler in their T30 and T34. Moyer's design sketch of a generic exhaust system using his water lift muffler show no other muffler so I plan to leave it out. I am hoping this was the source of my back pressure problem.

Note, I get a message that the URL is an invalid file so I am doing something wrong. I will try the iphoto solution next. Thanks all.
Reply With Quote
  #40   IP: 71.168.64.2
Old 04-29-2011, 05:39 PM
ArtJ ArtJ is online now
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,177
Thanks: 221
Thanked 65 Times in 50 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tartansailboat View Post
Tom and Art. I finally removed the exhaust section from the output of the Moyer SS water lift muffler to the thru hull including the mystery part which turns out to be a muffler, not a check valve. I can blow thru it but it may present a restriction at high revs. I tried to attach a photo but it would not upload, says the max file for JPEG is over 3 Meg and mine is well below that but no luck. Send me your e-mails, friedman33@comcast.net and I will send you the photo back channel.

There is a t34 down the dock and he has the original standpipe with the same muffler so at least Tartan included that for some boats. I still wonder if the standpipe is noiser than the more modern water lift mufflers so maybe it was needed. Certainly Don's sketch using his water lift muffler shows no additional muffler.

Of course Don's exhaust port was made for 2 inch ID hose, the yard put on 1 7/8 inch, I would love to see the arms on the guy who installed that hose with a steel internal wire. And the thru hull is 1 1/2 so I have some fitting to do.
MY T34 with only original standpipe is very very quiet.
Regards

Art
Reply With Quote
  #41   IP: 98.248.12.160
Old 05-01-2011, 11:59 PM
tartansailboat tartansailboat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 100
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Art, That convinces me, I will do without the extra muffler that was installed originally (with the standpipe that I no longer have). I am still trying to get a photo uploaded, Bill Taggart gave me some good tips and I will try tomorrow just so you all get a look at this 37 year old muffler.

But one more problem, the output of the Moyer SS waterlift muffler is 2 inches OD so it was made for a 2 inch hose. This is fine, I think the intstaller at the yard used 1 7/8 wet/exhaust hose, very stiff and containing a very stiff steel internal wire. So while he was able to enlarge the hose to fit on the 2 inch output pipe of the Moyer muffler, I do not think he as able to get very much hose on the output pipe, certainly not enough for a double hose clamp and I think over the course of a few years, the vibrations helped pop the hose off. I could not get it back on sufficiently well to use two hose clamps and it too popped off at high revs. The new two inch hose should solve that problem.

The new problem is that the thru hull is 1 1/2, a two inch long threaded pipe. I could get a bushing to enlarge the diameter to 2 inches and then a 2 inch hose barb or just another short 2 inch nipple but that is adding a lot of weight to the thru hull and with the increased leverage, that does not sound like a great idea. My solution is to find a short piece of 1 1/2 inch hose with OD of 2 inches, i.e. 1/4 inch wall thickness, put the short length of 1 1/2 inch hose as a bushing and then fit the 2 inch hose over that with double clamps, perhaps one of the T type not just the worm screw type. Is that good practice and if not can anyone suggest a better solution?

Many thanks in advance.
Reply With Quote
  #42   IP: 75.30.247.91
Old 05-03-2011, 02:20 PM
Crash Crash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 76
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Here's an update on the hot section rebuild after I lowered it 2 additional inches for a total of 4" below the deck. With the customary burn off and pipe gassing the engine ran beautifully at a temperature of little less than 140 degrees but a majority of the time hovered around 120 degrees. For the record, before the rebuild and acid flush she ran consistently at 180-220 degrees and partial throttle...even the kayakers were getting ahead of us. Water discharge out the stern was 2-3X's better than before.

Now here's the funny (good) part, no white steam was seen being discharged out the stern after the rebuild! Before the rebuild there was always a trail of steam for about 4 feet off the stern but no more!

The deck directly above the hot section however was hot to the touch inside the engine compartment and warmer than normal outside. The hot section is wrapped with MMI's exhaust wrap and there is about double layers over the top pipe. I have on order a heat shield material (rated at 1200 degrees) that I'll install to the ceiling of the engine compartment just in case. Just bugs me its that hot in there.

Next engine related project will be to install the pvc valve to address the engine blow-by...which is more annoying than the burn-off/off gassing of the new hot section!
__________________

1979 C&C36 'Dionysus'
Reply With Quote
  #43   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 05-04-2011, 11:31 AM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
crash...I have noticed a 'hot spot' in the top of my engine box too..what type of shielding are you using? I didn't notice the hot spot until I was contorted in the bilge this weekend trying to replace the fuel pump bolts with allen head bolts while I have all the associated plumbing out of the way and I can get to that side of the block.
Attached Images
 
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
  #44   IP: 75.30.247.91
Old 05-04-2011, 12:30 PM
Crash Crash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 76
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Wow Shawn, your Hot Section is very close to the top of your engine room!? I lowered my section the extra 2" just because of the heat alone. I ordered this "Floor and Tunnel Shield" product: http://www.designengineering.com/cat...und-insulation

It's backed with adhesive so as long as I clean the surface of oil and what-knot's it should stick. I'll also be prepared if the adhesive doesn't stick with ...something just in case. After looking at their catalog more I guess there's other products I could have ordered that may do a better job, just not sure until I try it. Hint: 'Amazon' has better prices... I should have the heat shield by Friday and will install on Saturday...then make a mad dash out onto the Bay. I almost feel like a addict needing a sailing fix!
__________________

1979 C&C36 'Dionysus'
Reply With Quote
  #45   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 05-04-2011, 01:17 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
Thumbs up

Crash..thanks for the link & hints!!

I am familiar with that stuff..a buddy was/is using it while restoring his '74-ish Corvette...Duh..who'd have thought about protecting the boat with it!
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
  #46   IP: 75.30.247.91
Old 05-04-2011, 01:33 PM
Crash Crash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 76
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'm humbled Shawn you've given me (and many others here on the board) mountains of info, glad I could pitch in a little "pinch" of info. I'll keep you posted on the install and results unless you beat me to it.

I use that stuff on my modified air intake under the hood of my Z..just to keep the air cool as it crosses over the engine. Have to admit the modified intake gives me the giggles when I'm on the freeway.
__________________

1979 C&C36 'Dionysus'
Reply With Quote
  #47   IP: 138.88.66.188
Old 05-05-2011, 04:56 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
crash..I ordered that stuff from Amazon yesterday...& even used super saver shipping and it arrived at 1630 EDT. Sweet! Now I can do that this weekend!
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
  #48   IP: 75.30.247.91
Old 05-05-2011, 05:49 PM
Crash Crash is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 76
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
crash..I ordered that stuff from Amazon yesterday...& even used super saver shipping and it arrived at 1630 EDT. Sweet! Now I can do that this weekend!
That's FAST!!! I got mine yesterday afternoon and sooo ready to install it too! I was at the boat this morning and installed the Indigo's PCV valve and ready for a test sail Saturday. Hope the heat shield does it's job keeping the fiberglass cool! (both yours and mine)
__________________

1979 C&C36 'Dionysus'
Reply With Quote
  #49   IP: 69.152.38.179
Old 05-23-2011, 08:17 PM
pallen58's Avatar
pallen58 pallen58 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Leawood KS
Posts: 50
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Great information here and pictures. I have an E29 with what I think is some sort of standpipe set up for the muffler. Has anyone here put the water lift in the E29 and if so do you have any pictures or suggestions? I have a good space to work with put just need some ideas on where to stop the hot section and go with the hoses.
Thanks
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
exhaust, hot section, riser

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hot section replacement -- advice needed Clucas Exhaust System 2 02-13-2011 10:22 PM
To Rebuild or Not To Rebuild (That is the Question) jkenan General Interest 13 02-07-2011 03:29 PM
Exhaust Hot Section On Pearson Triton Triton106 Exhaust System 6 04-09-2010 01:29 AM
exhaust hot section restoration harvey Exhaust System 4 09-11-2007 04:42 PM
Replacing the hot section on a T30 BadaBing Exhaust System 0 09-09-2007 10:49 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved