Flushed Engine - now have water in cylinders?

[Islander3382]

I'm not sure exactly where to post this, I've been lurking here for a while. I just bought this Islander about 6 weeks ago. The third time out I noticed when leaving the dock that there was only "steam" leaving the exhaust. I immediately shut down the engine, but the temp was in excess of 230. We continued the sail while letting the engine cool and restarted just long enough to return to the slip (about 5 minutes) at the end of the day. I assumed that the impeller was shot, so made plans to replace it.

When inspecting this weekend I started inspecting the raw water cooling system from the beginning and found a totally fouled fitting at the sea cock. Once I cleared it, water flowed freely through the engine, I started the engine and ran it for about 5 minutes at the dock, it spit some brown goo out the exhaust and I thought we probably dodged a bullet.

When I went below I noted some badly corroded fittings on the engine block, the aft drain pipe had sprung a leak (behind the alternator). The others were plugged. I decided to flush the block and exhaust manifold with water from the dock and then get ready to do the acid flush. After the fresh water flush, I could not re-start the engine. It acted flooded, like there was no spark.

To make what has been a long story, short. I removed the spark plugs and cranked, per the A-4 instructions for a flooded engine and got seawater showered all over the engine compartment.

So here's my question: Where to I go from here? To me this sounds like a blown head gasket, but I suppose it could be a flooded exhaust manifold from either the flushing or the cranking.

The previous owner did report a blown head gasket in the past, but I don't recall when and he didn't tell me about any corrective action taken. I suspect that given the amount of hard deposits in the sea cock fitting, that he had been operating the vessel for quite a while with no cooling water. Once cooling water was added to the mix, it found it's way through the blown head gasket to the #3 and possibly #4 cylinders.

Thoughts from the wise?

[MikeB.330]

If the engine wasn't running when you were flushing it out then you flooded the poor girl with hose water. It's the same thing that happens if you crank the engine for too long without turning off the water intake.

Mike

[Islander3382]

Thanks Mike, that is the route I was pursuing. (It's the simplest). I am hoping that's all it is. I've got my MMO, and picking up new plugs today. I also planning on drying out the cylinders and blowing out the exhaust manifold with some low pressure to speed things up. After I get everyting copacetic again I will perform an acid wash, and a few other tasks as recommended on this board. I've already got the Maintenance manual and some other items on order from Don.

[SEMIJim]

If, by "...flush the block and exhaust manifold with water from the dock..." you mean you hooked a water hose up to the thing and turned it loose, you flooded you engine cylinders with water. There is also the likelihood of water in your engine's lubrication system (oil pan, etc.) I don't know if Don has a trouble-shooting procedure for clearing this problem, but, if he does, you best follow it or you may find yourself needed a new engine.

There is a block and manifold flushing procedure, but it's significantly more involved than just hooking up the hose and turning it loose.

Good luck!

Jim

[Islander3382]

Here's the latest...

I returned with my MMO, and a tank of CO2. I disconnected the cooling water inlet to the exhaust manifold and held up a regulated outlet of CO2 to the inlet fitting to clear the manifold and the water lift muffler all the way to the exhaust outlet. When the exhaust was sort of "batching" then I removed all the plugs and added MMO to the cylinders. I cranked the engine until water stopped coming out the #4 cylinder. I added some more MMO and cranked a little more. I Reinstalled the old plugs and tried to start with the sea cock closed.

The #4 plug fouled immediately with some water and MMO but the engine tried real hard to run. I replaced the #4 plug and restarted the engine and let it run until the engine temp guage read about 140 or so (about 3 minutes).

The next step is to check the compression and see how much damage the PO might have done by running with a clogged through hull, do a few oil changes to eliminate water from the crankcase, replace the other 3 plugs, and hopefully go sailing!

When the weather gets cold, I will do a bit more maintenance, I see an acid flush in my future, and probably an acid dip for the exhaust manifold, it is in really bad shape.

I am always open to more advice from the experienced and wise!

Thanks,

Jeff

[SEMIJim]

Glad to see you got 'er going, Jeff .

I'd do an oil change, since I'd expect there's a good chance some of that water ended-up in the oil system.

Jim

[Islander3382]

No Doubt on the oil change. That was on my early PM list anyway since it was looking very black when I checked it the first time after I bought the vessel. It moved right to the very top of the list - before going sailing again when I realized how hot the engine had been getting with a plugged through-hull.

Already have the replacment oil, will buy more to make sure that I can get multiple changes done.

Thanks for the tips!

Jeff

[SEMIJim]

Jeff,

I recommend Moyer's Oil Change Kit, found here, and the Moeller Fluid Extractor Kit. That is the combo I use and it makes oil changes a breeze.

I just went through a process where I drained the oil, refilled with ATF for a flush and re-filled with straight 30 weight and it was actually not an unpleasant way to spend part of my Sunday afternoon .

Jim

[Islander3382]

After getting the engine running and dried out, I gave it another shot with the fresh water cooling seacock open. That pressed my luck a bit far. Seawater filled the #4 and possibly 3 cylinder again.

I dried everything out per my previous experience, used lots of MMO, and sat back to lick my wounds a bit. (It was 4th of July after all). I had a bit of an unscheduled hospital stay the next few days that I'm still recuperating from so I've got some very specific instructions that don't make working on a sailboat easy.

I've got new head gaskets, and appropriate others on order and set to arrive tomorrow-ish. Tonight I'm going down with a friend to pull the head, etc. I'm a bit wary of what I'll find, but it surely will be interesting. It will give me an opportunity to have the exhaust manifold acid-dipped, or at least ultrasonically cleaned. The head can be checked by a good local shop, and we will go from there with the next steps.

If I'm lucky, I will be cleared to sail (and motor) yet this summer!

[SEMIJim]

Originally Posted by Islander3382

After getting the engine running and dried out, I gave it another shot with the fresh water cooling seacock open. That pressed my luck a bit far. Seawater filled the #4 and possibly 3 cylinder again.

I'm confused. What do you mean "gave it another shot with the freshwater seacock open?" Gave what another shot? Do you mean to say you got seawater in (up to) two of the cylinders from just running the engine?

Did the engine start right up, or did you have to crank it an excessively long time to get it started?

Jim

[Islander3382]

Originally Posted by SEMIJim

I'm confused. What do you mean "gave it another shot with the freshwater seacock open?" Gave what another shot? Do you mean to say you got seawater in (up to) two of the cylinders from just running the engine?

Did the engine start right up, or did you have to crank it an excessively long time to get it started?

Jim

The engine never started with the seacock open, the cylinders seemed to flood right away (with water). I wouldn't say I cranked excessively long, if anything I'm pretty gun-shy about that given the recent history. The water lift muffler was purged down to the point of not siphoning backwards by blowing through the exhaust with low pressure air previously.

When we removed the exhaust flange, there was no water in the exhaust system, at least it didn't come flowing out in any quantity. There was plenty in the #4 cylinder though It was filled to the top of the cylinder bore. That was disconcerting to say the least. I am certain that when I left everything last I had could see the tops of the pistons through the spark plug holes and I left MMO on the tops of the pistons.

The head gasket showed no obvious signs of being blown or burned through, although only one had been put on when it was last replaced by the PO and it doesn't appear to be the same kind that I just received from Moyer Marine.

I just had a thought last evening that I wonder if my exhaust manifold has a crack in the casting, it is a three part casting, and it is clear that it's gotten very hot. I haven't put the head on a surface plate yet either.

[msauntry]

Wrong thread, sorry...

[Islander3382]

I just went out to my shop and took a look at the exhaust manifold at lunch. When I blocked off the drain hole and the outlet and blew into the inlet I had free flow out the manifold onto my neck.

I shined a flashlight in through the exhaust flange and could see a crack in the water jacket. I could feel the hole up in the top of the exhaust manifold, (bottom of the water jacket). Nearly large enough to put my little finger through.

That explains the water in the cylinders, doesn't it?.

So all I have to do now is make a shopping list, I'll probably get the head faced, and get a few more parts on order from Moyer Marine too. Hopefully there's no block damage too.

[Islander3382]

After some recuperation for me (and now the boat) I've finally gotten the engine re-assembled. With the new exhaust manifold from MMI and some light patching of the thermostat area on the head with JB-Weld we finally put the whole thing together last weekend. Throughout the summer I would work my way down to the boat and try to make sure that nothing had siezed up by manually rotating the crankshaft and continuing to apply Marvel Mystery Oil to the tops of the cylinders.

I had a bit of a problem with sticky valves and after reassembling the engine, quickly realized that I should have taken the carb off, as the float was totally stuck down and flooding. Last week I rebuilt the carb and reinstalled it Thursday evening. Now the engine is running like a top. I've changed the oil at least 5 times and I think I've gotten rid of the sticky valve in the #4 cylinder with liberal doses to the cylinders of MMO at each oil change.

I still can't get the Temp gauge to get above 100 deg at idle, but everything else looks great.

So tomorrow (Veteran's Day) I take the kids sailing. We've missed basically the whole summer sailing season due to illness (mine and the engine's). However since we live in San Diego we still have the rest of the year's sailing season to enjoy.

Thanks Don, for the great Website, the manual, newsletter compendium, great parts service, and conversation on the phone to encourage the JB-Weld repair.

I look forward to more info from this board and to being a contributor (not just a lurker).

[Don Moyer]

Congratulations, and hugs to the kids!

Don