Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Troubleshooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 50.153.148.85
Old 08-08-2015, 06:29 PM
CVachon CVachon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 12
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Unhappy 1979 A4 stopped working

We have a 1979 A4 that stopped working yesterday. We changed our Racor fuel filter, changed the spark plugs and set the gap, and cleaned the carburetor. While doing this we noticed that the grease fitting for the Oberdorfer water pump had rusted off. Not sure if this is part of the problem.
The engine turns over, but does not start. We checked 3 of the cylinders, compression was 110 on the first and 90 on the second two. We didn't check the last cylinder (closest to the flywheel) because the threads are stripped and didn't want to risk not getting it back in. We checked the points and spark to all of the plugs.
Any thoughts on what the problem could be, or other things to check? Any good A4 mechanics in the Wareham, Mass area? We're thinking about using Onset Bay marina if we can't sort this out.
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 75.131.226.163
Old 08-09-2015, 07:20 AM
Trés 30's Avatar
Trés 30 Trés 30 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 109
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Compression, fuel, spark.

Sounds like you've got good compression, 3 outta 4 ain't bad.

Spark should be a crisp blue snap able to jump ~1/4" to ground.

Gas is fresh and plugs smell of gas and no water in your filter?

Was it a shut down or just wouldn't start yesterday? If shut down what symptoms/sounds?

Might want to service that water pump too
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 24.138.22.213
Old 08-09-2015, 08:14 AM
Mo's Avatar
Mo Mo is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Halifax NS,
Posts: 4,470
Thanks: 292
Thanked 411 Times in 272 Posts
Can you describe how it shut down. Was it sudden like turning off a switch or did it sort of sputter to a stop. A few things you can check. My initial thinking leans toward fuel issue.

Just a couple of things you can check on the fuel side of things before getting too invasive.

[B]EXTREME CAUTION working on a fuel issue. [B] once you open the system the smell of gas numbs the ability of the nose to sense it...

-Fuel...ensure you haven't run out of fuel. Gauges can be faulty...saw two run out of gas this year that thought they had more serious issue.
-Electric Fuel Pump?...if so check wiring and OPSS connections.
-Manual Fuel Pump?...remove oil fill cap and sniff or smell of gas. If there is gas in the crankcase. If so you may have ruptured diaphram on the pump and loosing fuel pressure as well as leaking into the base pan.
__________________
Mo

"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 50.153.148.216
Old 08-09-2015, 08:40 AM
CVachon CVachon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 12
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
She stalled and wouldn't restart

We've been cruising for about 2 weeks and she'd been running great. She usually starts right up, but it took a few tries on Friday morning when we left Marta's Vineyard. We shut her down when we were out of the harbor, but when we tried to start her a few hours later, it took a few tries again. We were trying to get through the cape cod canal that day, so we decided to leave her on at idle while we sailed for the next few hours. She seemed to be running great, but stalled right before the canal. She refused to restart. We have gas and we changed the racor filter just to make sure it wasn't a problem with water in the gas. When we checked the carberator, it was clogged, so we cleaned it thoroughly. We were really surprised that it didn't restart after we reinstalled the carb.
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 97.93.94.201
Old 08-09-2015, 11:23 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
CV, have ou been trying to start with the water valve off?

How did the 3 plugs look when you did the compression?

When you reset the gap did you check for spark? And how far off was the gap? And was this "gap adjustment" points or plugs?

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 08-09-2015, 12:06 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 2,002
Thanks: 16
Thanked 578 Times in 405 Posts
CV,
To determine whether you're chasing a fuel or spark issue, try giving it a shot of starting ether. If nothing, you're missing spark. If it roars for a moment, you've got a fuel issue. Go from there.
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 174.226.64.154
Old 08-09-2015, 03:30 PM
CVachon CVachon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 12
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thinking its a spark problem

We installed new spark plugs and set the spark plugs to .035. We removed water from water lift muffler. Cleaned the carb. Changed the racor. Cleaned the flame arrestor. Changed the oil. We have fuel getting to the fuel pump and the fuel pump is working. We shut the water valve off to start her. She turns over, but refuses to catch. We tried the starting ether, but that didn't change anything. Two of the plugs are at 90 and one was at 110. We can't adjust the timing of the plugs because we can't figure out how to access the flywheel; we have a catalina 30 which has very poor access and we weren't smart enough to buy a handcrank. Based upon what I've read here, it seems that it's a spark problem
We really appreciate everyone's help.
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 24.138.22.213
Old 08-09-2015, 06:43 PM
Mo's Avatar
Mo Mo is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Halifax NS,
Posts: 4,470
Thanks: 292
Thanked 411 Times in 272 Posts
OK, If you have a spare set of plugs try them first....try restart after each intervention. Then points and condensor if you have them on there. It's a pretty inexpensive propositition. Then try it again. If it still doesn't fire up right away, look to the coil. Also have a look at the wires around the distributor /coil and ensure nothing is chaffed there. The little black wire that comes out from under the distributor...ensure it is not pinched and chaffed as well.

After an attempted start have a look at the plugs....see if there is any wetness or droplets on them. Wet looking is gas...Droplets indicate water. What I'm driving at here is that perhaps a progressive manifold leak could have caused the stall...long shot but could happen...you should have noticed a miss...check the plugs and post a phone pic of them if you can.
__________________
Mo

"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 08-09-2015 at 06:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 08-09-2015, 07:38 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Question

Do you have electronic ignition or points?
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 50.153.149.10
Old 08-09-2015, 08:02 PM
Flaky Puff Flaky Puff is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cool Carol's husband

Off the boat having dinner will post pics of the plugs when we return shortly.
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 70.192.11.31
Old 08-09-2015, 08:39 PM
Flaky Puff Flaky Puff is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
1979 stopped running

We have electronic ignition. Attached is a picture of the old and new plugs.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 70.192.6.14
Old 08-10-2015, 09:06 AM
Flaky Puff Flaky Puff is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Question Fuel valve needle

Thanks for everything so far should our fuel valve needle look like this? Or should it be an actual point? Does the black need to be removed or should it be there?
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 08-10-2015, 09:27 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
That black stuff is the seal for the needle. It belongs there. Next time call me; I can be on the harbor usually within minutes.
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-10-2015, 09:43 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Just a couple of observations on the direction of this thread:
  • Guessing is not troubleshooting. Several posts in and it hasn't been determined yet if the problem is fuel, spark or both. Sooner or later, usually later, by throwing a bunch of parts at it you'll fix it but it can be a confusing and frustrating journey.
  • About throwing parts at it, I heard another forum member refer to it as "parts therapy" or "change therapy."
Examples of troubleshooting without the parts:

Upon shut down the entire ancillary ignition system could be eliminated by trying to run with a simple jumper wire between batt+ and coil+. If it ran properly with a jumper, the problem is in the ignition wiring and you could stop looking elsewhere. If not, you can eliminate the ignition wiring and proceed downstream to check for a good hot spark across the plug gap.

For fuel, remove the main passage plug and see if any fuel comes out. No? You have a fuel delivery problem that could go as far as the float valve. Fuel comes out but it's cruddy? There you go. Fuel comes out and it's clean? That issue is eliminated. An open float valve would flood fuel all over the place so that's pretty obvious.

Both examples attempt to either indicate a general area that's wrong or eliminate what's right. It's a matter of homing in on the problem(s). BTW, the EWDS monitors fuel inlet pressure and coil input voltage. It would have alerted instantly and indicated which of those dropped below minimum levels had either been the case.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 08-10-2015 at 10:15 AM. Reason: added EWDS plug
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 174.236.33.210
Old 08-10-2015, 10:23 AM
CVachon CVachon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 12
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Point well taken

Neil, thanks for your very honest assessment. At this point, we've removed the carb again because after being taken apart and cleaned on Saturday, it was leaking. We just ordered the rebuild kit from Moyer. So, unfortunately, we won't be able to perform the ignition wiring test until the carb is reinstalled. The gas that came out of the just-cleaned carb was dirty.
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-10-2015, 10:29 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Thumbs up Now we're gettin' somewhere

Good find. The crud came from somewhere upstream and there's no reason to expect it won't return after you clean the carb a second (and third and fourth) time. Go find the source of the contamination.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 12.216.194.200
Old 08-10-2015, 12:40 PM
smosher smosher is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 489
Thanks: 0
Thanked 35 Times in 34 Posts
When you clean the carb make sure to poke wire though the jets. The jets are
too small for the carb cleaner to blast out the crud.

Steve
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 98.226.209.168
Old 08-10-2015, 05:01 PM
HOTFLASH HOTFLASH is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 210
Thanks: 29
Thanked 26 Times in 21 Posts
Polishing filter

Suggest considering an inline polishing filter placed after the fuel pump before the carb. It catches stuff the fuel pump and separater may pass along. Make sure your hoses are all USCG rated for alcohol in fuel. If not, the hoses may shed little flecks. See our host's catalog for the filter. Cheap insurance.

Mary
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 70.192.21.16
Old 08-10-2015, 06:40 PM
Flaky Puff Flaky Puff is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Fuel lines

Mary,
Our fuel lines are USCG approved for alcohol, will get a polishing filter ASAP
Thank You all
Reply With Quote
  #20   IP: 70.192.7.31
Old 08-12-2015, 01:21 PM
Flaky Puff Flaky Puff is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Atomic4 stopped running

Neil,
We tried the jumper, nothing. Have good spark in all 4 plugs and straight from the coil. The gas is clean coming out of the carb.
Any other thoughts?

We have new plugs, properly gapped, rebuilt the carb, and added a new coil!

Thanks, Phil
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-12-2015, 01:49 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
You've hit most of the marks

I have a few disjointed thoughts:
  • Fuel You report previous carb clogging and now clean fuel. Why is the fuel clean now and not before? Is it the filtration? If yes, in time you only moved the problem from the carb to the filter(s). Are you sure the choke is closing fully? Idle mixture screw 1˝ turns off the seat? Are you certain the carb is clean from the last gunk-fest, even the tiny pores in the throat?
  • Spark Good spark is a must but it must be at the right time. As a quick check rotate the engine to #1 TDC (careful there, see below) and remove the distributor cap to be certain the tab on the rotor points to the #1 post on the cap. Are you able to turn the distributor body by hand (hopefully not)?
TDC is the point where the #1 piston is at the top of it's travel after the intake valve closes as you rotate the crankshaft CCW facing the flywheel. Be sure you don't confuse the intake and exhaust valves.

That's about all I can think is left. You report good fuel, good spark and good compression. Accepting those three (you're there, I'm not) she ought to run.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 08-12-2015 at 11:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 08-12-2015, 02:45 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Question

In post #1 you mentioned checking the points; later you posted that you have EI. Which is correct?
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 174.236.8.45
Old 08-12-2015, 03:00 PM
CVachon CVachon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 12
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Electronic ignition

We have electronic ignition. Hanley, Flaky Puff left you a vm. Can you call when you have a minute?
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 174.236.8.45
Old 08-12-2015, 04:33 PM
CVachon CVachon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 12
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Distributor Cap

[*]Spark Good spark is a must but it must be at the right time. As a quick check rotate the engine to #1 TDC (careful there, see below) and remove the distributor cap to be certain the tab on the rotor points to the #1 post on the cap. Are you able to turn the distributor body by hand (hopefully not)?


The tab on the rotor points to #3 and not #1. How do we adjust it?
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 08-12-2015, 04:44 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Call me. I sent the number to both of you.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
what are the symptoms of the advance not working? KenVoodoo Troubleshooting 13 07-01-2012 04:53 PM
A4 not working under load Phil_E Troubleshooting 20 10-28-2011 08:46 AM
temperature and oil pressure gauge stopped working fixxxer0 Troubleshooting 1 07-05-2011 02:18 PM
Video- Working Engine Sea Trials rpowers General Interest 9 04-29-2011 06:29 PM
Working on my A4 gives me great satisfaction Baltimore Sailor General Interest 6 06-05-2008 04:09 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved