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Old 09-12-2018, 12:05 AM
sealevelsound sealevelsound is offline
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Introduction; Attempting To Revive An A4

Hello everyone. First, let me say that this website and forum have been invaluable resources in just the few short days since I started working on an Atomic 4 (heck, a week ago I didn't know a thing about them!) So thank you for your dedication and willingness to share your knowledge. It has already helped me tremendously. That said, here comes a long winded post.

A little back story...

Last year my brother acquired a Pearson 30 (1971/2) equipped with an Atomic 4. For various reasons, the boat has sat on the hard for the last year. When she was last hauled, I don't believe the engine was properly winterized. I spoke with the PO and she said that they didn't run the engine much in the last few years, but that the old Atomic 4 "just runs and runs." She also said they kept up with the basic yearly maintenance. So, that's fairly encouraging.

We are planning to launch the boat within the next few weeks, with the sole intent of sailing it across the bay so that it can be hauled/stored at a marina down the street, rather than a 45 min. drive away. With that in mind, I've made it my personal mission to MAKE SURE that engine is going to run.

Here's what I've already done, as recommended by Mr. Moyer and many on this forum:

-change oil (the old oil was frothy; evidence of water intrusion)

-change spark plugs, perform thumb compression test (seemed OK to me)

-pour Marvel Mystery Oil into each cylinder via spark plug hole

-flush old fuel from carburetor via the main passage plug on the bottom (it
was pretty nasty looking, but didn't seem to have any water in it)

-remove water pump cover plate to inspect impeller (impeller is in surprisingly good condition)

-remove distributor cap and clean contact points. The condenser, cap, wires, etc. all look to be in relatively good condition.

We have not tried actually starting the engine yet. I wanted to give it a fighting chance by making sure at least some of the necessary things were done. The good news is the starter is functional, and the pistons turn over. Hurray, the engine isn't totally seized.

The bad news is...it looks like the engine is BADLY corroded, and leaks coolant (raw sea water) from a few different places. It seems like the water pump is leaky, as well as the gasket for the thermostat housing, and probably a few other spots (the cooling jacket area looks pretty rough). My initial reaction on seeing the engine was, damn... that is one helluva rust bucket. I've got my fingers crossed and I'm hoping that it's mostly exterior, cosmetic corrosion, and that the engine's guts are OK.

I have a few specific questions:

1. After I flushed and then manually re-primed the carburetor with fuel, I noticed a small drip leak of fuel coming from the very bottom of the carb (where the scavenger is connected). It leaked very slowly for maybe an hour, then stopped. Does this mean the carb has a faulty gasket? Or did I simply fill it with too much fuel? Would it leak during operation, and could this be dangerous/worrisome?

2. Spark plugs #1 and #4 threaded/unthreaded extremely easily; #2 was tougher; #3 was an absolute bear - both ways. I even stripped the threads on a new spark plug trying to install it in #3. Is it possible to damage the actual threads on the head? Or could they be damaged/crossthreaded? (I did manage to get one in there, but it took some muscle, and I was using anti-seize)

3. What to do about a leaky water pump? If it is able to circulate enough water to cool the engine, will it be OK for the short amount of time we need it for? This would be an item to replace in the future obviously, but right now we just need this thing to run.

4. From what I can tell, the thermostat has been removed and replaced by a manual bypass valve to control temperature. Does this seem right? And how does one typically operate the valve to control temp?

5. Attached are a some photos. My million dollar question is this: have you seen an A4 that was this thrashed-looking run perfectly fine? And potentially be restored/rebuilt in the future? I just don't know were "too far gone" is for these things.


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I have lots more photos that I'll likely attach in another post or two.

Thank you all in advance - feel free to reply to any, or all, of my questions and concerns. Or address something I haven't thought of.

Tomorrow I roll down to the boatyard with my bro to try and fire her up. I'll report back!
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:40 AM
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I will be brief - it leaks gasoline and water. It is not ready to go on a trip.
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:40 AM
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Not properly winterized? If the boat has been in freezing conditions a cooling system pressure test is important. Testing apparatus costs $10 at Home Depot, a means of creating air pressure is needed (compressor or bicycle tire pump) and about a half hour of time. Plenty of threads on the subject.
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Old 09-12-2018, 11:26 AM
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A couple things to offer:

If you have water in the oil, that's no bueno. As Neil said, a pressure check of cooling system is really important since the previous winter layup is of dubious quality. There are numerous threads on the subject and it's rather easy to accomplish (the hard part is really access to the engine). Water could also be coming in from the exhaust. It looks like you have very little drop in the water entry point into the dry section of the exhaust. If the shaft seals are worn in the water pump, water can get from there as well. Without a proper winter layup especially if you are in a colder climate, you really need to check the integrity of the cooling system. And that gate valve gives me the heebie-jeebies.

If the carb fuel bowl was gnarly, cleaning the carb is well-advised. The ports and passages are very tiny and easily clogged if the fuel gets contaminated. You mentioned fuel dripping. Dripping fuel is more no bueno than milky oil. If the fuel was pretty bad in the bowl, it could be the float valve is clogged, dirty, not seating, degraded and this is where the leak is coming from. It could be a bad gasket or even the drain plug could be leaking. This simply has to be fixed before cranking the engine. Having resurrected my A-4 from dormancy, I would highly recommend removing and rebuilding the carb. It's actually a rather enjoyable zen-like experience and can be done away from the boat. MMI sells the rebuild kit with instructions.

Fuel. If the boat has sat for a while, take a close look at the fuel system and fuel tank condition and quality of the fuel.

These little A-4s are marvelous little engines and can weather a lot of abuse. They do insist on a few things - good spark, good compression, and good fuel. A serious fuel filtering system will pay handsome dividends. I use a Racor water/fuel seperator filter prior to the fuel pump and a polishing filter prior to the carb.

You are inheriting all the previous maintenance done and not done. Given what you've shared, my first action before any other is checking the cooling system. If that passes the test, then I'd try to figure out where the water is coming from. After that, I would rebuild the carb and check the fuel system.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:54 PM
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I agree with what the others have said, especially regarding getting to the bottom of the fuel leak and the water in the oil before attempting to rely on that engine.

That engine does indeed look like something from an archeological dig. You mention it's raw water cooled, so you can bet the inside surfaces are pretty caked up as well, especially the water passages. You may want to consider a muriatic acid soak and flush to clear out some of the scale (Moyer provides simple instructions for that). Of course, that interior scale may be the only thing blocking even more leakage! But if that's the case, it would be good to know now.

What part of the country are you in?
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Old 09-12-2018, 02:13 PM
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Welcome to the forum!
All good advice so far. You have a list to address before running the engine.
Have you considered getting a tow across the bay?
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Old 09-12-2018, 02:56 PM
azazzera azazzera is offline
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Soooo..... ya. Gas leak should be your major concern. Then with all that corrosion what is your through Hull raw water valve like. I have a 1972/3 p30 and have a cone type valve. Mine was frozen open but was able to be rehabilitated. I understand your plan is to get engine up for a trip across a body of water and then pull boat? Sea tow or boat US. Get a membership or a good friend that can or would tow you. Howís the rig? Sails? If your going to sail to new marina. Unfortunately I donít have much advice for the trouble shooting you need to do. I do agree that too much digging around the rust or flushing things may get you into more trouble than its worth if a tip is what you need. Donít know how much the rust is holding things together or even if thatís a thing. May be something to think about. Once you do get the boat where you want it you most definitely should pull that engine and tear it down to the crank. I see what may be a monel (spelling?) gas tank in one of the pictures. You will be happy with that when you remove it, clean it. It will be like a brand new tank. Good luck and keep posting on the progress. Iíll try and give more salient Advice if I can based on my own trials with rehabing an old Pearson 30.
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:26 PM
sealevelsound sealevelsound is offline
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Thank you all for your timely and helpful responses! You brought up a number of things that I wouldn't have thought of on my own.

To address some of your concerns:

Yes, we do have some friends/relatives nearby who could give us a tow, if absolutely necessary. I understand that this engine should not be relied upon in its current condition. We are in Rhode Island, going from one side of the Narragansett Bay to the other (Wickford to Portsmouth). Not a very far trip. With any kind of breeze, we'll be under sail power 95% of the way. The boat's rigging is solid, and she was being sailed regularly up until last year. I also understand that a fuel leak is a dangerous thing, and should be treated seriously. If I had more time, I would be rebuilding the carb, as well as any number of things. However, I'm doing my brother a big favor by helping him out with this whole thing, and I'll be leaving at the end of the month...so things need to move quickly.

Showed up to the boat today. No fuel had leaked overnight, and the engine compartment did not smell of gas. I double checked everything, we ran the blower for at least five minutes, and...

SHE RUNS.

I can't really believe it. Just looking at the thing (first time I saw it was a week ago), you'd never believe it would run. But not only does she run; she PURRS. It's truly remarkable. I forgot to even pull the choke. Still started. And of course, I made sure to have the intake water hose out of the bucket while cranking, so as not to suck any water into the cylinders.

We managed to regulate the temp to between 140-160 by manipulating the gate valve. It was fairly sensitive to adjustment. Yes, she leaks water. It seems like it's mostly coming from the T-valve/cooling jacket area. The water pump actually looks OK. In fact, a lot of water was coming out of the exhaust, a very good sign. Oil pressure read between 30 and 60, depending on the amount of throttle. Alternator is providing amperage. Checked oil again after running and cool down, did not see any more evidence of water intrusion. That old oil had probably been in there a long time.

So it's a "working" engine. I still agree that it should not be relied on, so we'll have some backup plans in place if necessary. I did try to convince my bro to leave it where it is for the winter... but he's got a plan in mind, and I'm trying to help in whatever way I can.

Some more photos:
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Yes, the fuel filter looks ancient, but I did not see any water in the fuel I drained, and the engine seemed to hum along just fine. We did add a few gallons of fresh fuel to the tank, along with some MMO. The tank is indeed made of Monel, which brings me some peace of mind.

And the turkeys in the boatyard. It got me thinking, after getting neck-deep in this damn thing. Maybe I'm a turkey too!

I have to say this - in a week's time, I've gone from knowing nothing about an Atomic 4, to discovering this site, to getting down and dirty with one myself, to feeling like I understand this engine quite well, and all its various systems. I'm not a mechanic. But I like to tinker, and I like to learn. Thank you all for helping me learn!

We will be cautious as we proceed.

Last edited by sealevelsound; 09-23-2018 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:37 PM
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The A4 is a good engine.
Towing insurance is something your bro should consider. Not expensive, and could save him a BIG bill.
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:50 PM
sealevelsound sealevelsound is offline
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Agreed! I will remind him to look into the insurance.
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:02 PM
sealevelsound sealevelsound is offline
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I'm still curious - has anyone rebuilt (or seen somebody else rebuild) an Atomic 4 that looks this bad from the outside? If I'm around here for the winter, it's a project I'd like to take on.
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:33 PM
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I'd go for it. Remember, a little iron makes a LOT of rust. These engines usually rot out from the inside where coolant washes away the corrosion deposits. A good check for remaining sound metal is when you remove the studs - check the remaining wall thickness. 3/16" or more is OK, less is shaky. Converting to glycol cooling (heat exchanger) will prevent further internal corrosion. Stopping leaks will prevent the external corrosion. One known source of external leaks is that cover plate behind the alternator - change that from bolts to studs & nuts (Moyer has a kit to do this). When I changed to glycol cooling, I also had to upgrade to the ball bearing water pump to keep the glycol in the engine. A raw water leak is no big deal - just goes into the bilge. When you leak glycol, it's like losing blood - you've only got so much!
Oh yeah - buy the Moyer Maintenance & Overhaul Manual.

Last edited by Al Schober; 09-12-2018 at 10:35 PM. Reason: add Moyer Manual
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Old 09-12-2018, 11:40 PM
sealevelsound sealevelsound is offline
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"A little iron makes a lot of rust."

You could say that again!

But honestly, that's great to hear. I kept scratching my head (and contorting my body) while working on the A4, thinking, "is this worth it?" But after hearing that crusty engine purr like a kitten, I can only imagine how she'd perform after a complete tear down and overhaul. Like I said, if I'm here in RI and I have the time, I'd love to do it (and document it on this forum).

Yes. That appears to be where most of the water is leaking from (the cover plate). And I have read up on the Moyer kit. Also I did figure that about the cooling water... at least plenty is still getting through the engine, and the boat DOES have working bilge pump!

Thanks again for the advice and information.

Last edited by sealevelsound; 09-12-2018 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:02 AM
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Welcome..there is of course some risk involved in your plan. I was in this same place 10 years ago. I motored the boat down the river in November with a dirty prop and windy conditions to get it hauled for the winter the first year I owned it. We survived, but, in hindsight, I am surprised the motor ever got us there, but they are robust...despite our, or the PO's, neglect.
The water leaks are a little concerning, and thankfully, the very concerning gas leaks seem to be (temporarily??) solved. Any smell of gas is very bad, but the water leaks can maybe be remedied with the boat closer to home and time to diagnose them better. Mine looked pretty bad on the outside too, and she is still running 10 years later.
Make sure the bilge pump works!
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:34 AM
sealevelsound sealevelsound is offline
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Glad to hear we aren't the only ones to have undertaken such a foolhardy adventure

At least for us, it'll still be September. The water in the bay is around 75 degrees. That's nice...very nice. And with any luck, we'll have a warm breezy day for the voyage.

I am very grateful we're not in the path of Florence right now, and my thoughts are with everyone who lives down in that area.

Thanks again - I will check back in with any updates.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:25 AM
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Get towing insurance! Best $150 or so you will ever spend and it covers YOU, not the boat, so it works on any other boat you are on that dies.
The engine may well not have any internal issues. Fix the plate behind the alternator and clean it up. Might be fine
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Old 09-22-2018, 09:24 AM
sealevelsound sealevelsound is offline
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She made it!

We had a great day for the trip, and the boat sailed marvelously. We only had to motor out of Wickford Harbor and into the marina in Portsmouth. The A4 performed flawlessly, though when I first threw her into reverse to back out of the slip in Wickford, I was nervous to the point of shaking. Getting the engine to run in neutral on land is one thing; counting on it to propel you through a narrow channel with a swift current is another entirely. She was up to the task, though. The fact that the boat is now safely over here is huge weight off our shoulders. We can much more easily focus on additional tweaks, repairs, etc.

Yesterday was officially the last full day of summer. I made a joke to my brother about setting a new record for latest-in-season launch
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Old 09-22-2018, 09:53 AM
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Tools for rebuild

Good morning Sealevelsound.

Two years ago I rebuilt our A4. I have several tools I got just for this job, including engine stand, stud extractors, ring compressors and honing kit, etc. I'm near you (in Narragansett) and would be glad to loan you any tools you'd rather not buy. -Jack
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Old 09-22-2018, 12:28 PM
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bravo

"...and would be glad to loan you any tools you'd rather not buy."

That's what I love about this forum.
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:24 PM
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Flashback

Reading your account of your trip brought me back to when I took my trip out of mt. Sinai harbor to port Jeff. My sister came along and very glad I had the extra pair of hands. It must have been 15 gusting to 20 with a new (to me) Pearson 30. That was a good sail. I would most definitely heed the advice of the knowing ones on this forum and pressure test the engine first. Just from the outside look of that engine I think it would call for a complete rebuild. Of course money as it is too offen in life can be a deciding factor in the decision. I probably spent way more than I should have on my rebuild. I learned way more than I could have ever imagined. know just about every nut and bolt on that engine. That is priceless. I got some cool new tools to boot. It turned out ok on mine but I took a big risk not pressure testing things first. I would most certainly convert to fresh water cooling no matter how deep the rebuild goes.

I think I can speak for some if not all that we are excited for you and your brothers new endeavor. One thing I can tell you if you havenít noticed is that due to its scimitar rudder p30ís donít behave in reverse all that well. It takes a bit of getting to know itís reversing characteristics.

Good luck. Keep posting when you can.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:06 AM
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Good morning Jack, and thank you for the very generous offer! I am about to leave the area and will not be back until mid December. However, I am eager to take on the project. I will definitely keep you in mind. I appreciate your generosity.

Last edited by sealevelsound; 09-23-2018 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:17 AM
sealevelsound sealevelsound is offline
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azazzera-

Glad to hear of your similar adventure with a P30. I had read about the unusual reversing characteristics you describe, but of course couldn't quite grasp it until real world experience came into play. Backing out of the slip, I kept thinking, "uh...the boat should be turning." I had the wheel going all over the place (this P30 came with a lot of the factory upgrades, including a wheel in place of the tiller). Once in forward, she swung around no problem. That was a welcome relief.

I will heed your advice and pressure test the engine before undertaking any major overhauling.

My previous sailing experience is with an ODay 28, a Catalina 22, and various small/fun sailboats. I can say now that the P30 is a delight to sail, and was quite swift in the water. I see why these boats have a faithful following. Especially cool that we brought her home to Portsmouth, RI, where she was originally built.

Last edited by sealevelsound; 09-23-2018 at 12:36 AM.
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