#76
IP: 206.125.176.5
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
This is how my boat was winterized for the first 31 years by the P.O. I personally don't like this method, but it worked. Since I've owned it, I chose to pickle it with pink RV antifreeze in the winter before converting to FWC this summer. I'll probably use green antifreeze in the raw water side of the system now, since it is only a couple feet of hose & the HX now that still has raw water in it.
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#77
IP: 134.223.116.201
|
|||
|
|||
Winterizing
I removed the thermostat to pump antifreeze through my salt water cooled engine. With the bypass clamped off I have no flow of coolant through the engine (no coolant being discharged out the exhaust). If I remove the clamp from the bypass there is coolant out the exhaust as normal. The engine is running normally with no overheating. Any idea why I am not getting a flow of coolant through the engine?
|
#78
IP: 76.180.18.13
|
|||
|
|||
alternative method?
i have the original thin blue a-4 owner's manual. it gives 2 ways to winterize:
1 -- basically as don recommends, pumping in antifreeze -- or -- 2 -- no antifreeze -- just remove the drain plugs [including the rear one on the manifold] and the impeller cover on the water pump and let everything drain out. thus, i did # 2 this year, seeing as
so...do tell -- is there any good reason not to do it that way? also -- while i'm at it...when i decide to flush the cooling system....
and if filling with antifreeze per method 1,
thank you all -- and have a good winter!
__________________
keithems [1976 c&c 30 mk 1] |
#79
IP: 128.183.140.38
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Even if the motor's not runable, it's pretty easy to winterize it by disconnecting the cooling water inlet at the side plate, and the cooling water outlet at the manifold, and use a small electric pump to circulate anti-freeze through the engine & manifold. If you have a late model, be sure to remove the thermostat and clamp off the bypass hose. I've used a small pump meant for an outdoor fountain. I understand the inexpensive drill-mounted pumps work too. Also, if you have a waterlift muffler, don't forget to drain that too, or pour a bunch of anti-freeze in there. Definitely not! A 50-50 mix will have a lower freezing point than pure anti-freeze.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
#80
IP: 76.180.18.13
|
|||
|
|||
fwiw
Quote:
now no slippage -- and seems to make no difference what the motor oil is [within reason, of course] my original a4 manual recommends straight 30 wt OR 10W30
__________________
keithems [1976 c&c 30 mk 1] |
#81
IP: 76.180.18.13
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
i think i'll just take out the thermostat holder and pour antifreeze in from there Quote:
i don't think so -- usually the higher the antifreeze / water ratio, the lower the freeze point -- i'm just wondering if full antifreeze will be a problem -- it's not like a car -- since i have raw water cooling. i won't be operating with it, it just sits there for the winter.
__________________
keithems [1976 c&c 30 mk 1] |
#82
IP: 128.183.140.38
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
That's only true up to a point, after which the curve turns around. Take for example automotive anti-freeze, which is based on ethylene-glycol: As you can see, beyond about a 70% solution, the freezing point starts to come back up from a low of about -52C , with a pure anti-freeze solution only having a freezing point of -20C. (reference graph from http://www.veximchem.com/products%20...ntifreeze.html)
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
#83
IP: 76.180.18.13
|
|||
|
|||
very interesting!
somehow, i knew you knew what you were talking about!
so now i know why they always recommend a 70% concentration.... thank you! although, i wonder...is there any harm in 100%? yes, i know it's not as low a freezing point...but -20 f is ok --even here in buffalo -- esp. given global warming so is there another problem like increased corrosion? i know -- or at least have read -- that anti freeze is really corrosive, rust promoting, and they add rust inhibitors to combat that, but the rust inhibitors wear out much quicker than the antifreeze [glycol] does, etc.,etc. k
__________________
keithems [1976 c&c 30 mk 1] |
#84
IP: 138.88.62.64
|
||||
|
||||
Ed, Thanks for that graph. I almost replied to keithems, but i didn't have any data to back it up, so I kept my mouth shut. But, I knew green anti-freeze @ 100% froze before the 50/50 mix. Glad someone has time to research & publish the details.
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#85
IP: 108.28.109.76
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
That is -20 Centigrade. Which translates to only -4 Farenheit.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
#86
IP: 24.224.152.244
|
||||
|
||||
Lets talk cold.
70 percent concentration isn't necessary for us. By no means use antifreeze with cutting it though. We used 50 / 50 in the Arctic without problems. I've seen some do 60 /40 but not many. How far up? ...Tuktoyuktuk NWT. Even Russ will get away with 50 /50 without problems.
Attached are a few pics. I was the medic up North and worked on that rig for about a year....spent 10 winters up there....It's 110 miles North of Tuktoyuktuk NWT iced in ... in the Beaufort sea. The aircraft. It's a Ken Borek Air Twin Otter....I did a few medevacs in those in my time...fly in anything, land in anything, and come out of anywhere.
__________________
Mo "Odyssey" 1976 C&C 30 MKI The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The realist adjusts the sails. ...Sir William Arthur Ward. Last edited by Mo; 12-06-2012 at 06:27 AM. |
#87
IP: 138.88.62.64
|
||||
|
||||
Great pics, Mo.
I could never live that far north. - Maryland is still too far north for me except that the cruising grounds are fabulous here in the summer (and the Patuxent River Naval Air Station that keeps me employed is smack dab in the middle of the Chesapeake Bay.) I've been cruising the Chesapeake for almost 40 years and there are still places I haven't been to.
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#88
IP: 76.180.25.74
|
|||
|
|||
more in common
Quote:
used to land and take off on stol runways at jfk, lga, and bos -- basically 1500' taxiways -- with 19 passengers, baggage, and fuel.
__________________
keithems [1976 c&c 30 mk 1] |
#89
IP: 76.180.25.74
|
|||
|
|||
right -- knew it as soon as i wrote it
but even -4 f is below what we have here these days. it was around 60 f day before yesterday.
__________________
keithems [1976 c&c 30 mk 1] |
#90
IP: 24.224.152.244
|
||||
|
||||
Shawn,
We don't "live" up there...we "survive" up there. Every move has to be calculated. One thing we always did was make sure our gear was working right ...if it breaks down you can freeze to death. I had an F350 Ford 4x4 diesel up there and not once did it let me down...I looked after it. Those that didn't look after their rigs soon learned that it will get you in trouble. Maybe that's why I try to stay ahead of the game with the boat as well. Keith, I always loved the twin otter...I'm not a pilot, just a medic, but it was normally me and 2 pilots hanging around day in day out...and when the calls came in we went. I remember one night doing a medevac and the patient was stable...I was looking out the window on a full moon light. Looking down on the snow covered tundra was something else...almost like the lights were dimmed....anyway, I don't get to see that everyday. That plane in the pic is the one that did the rescue at the south pole back in 2001. For you Pilots http://polarflight-online.tripod.com/SPmedevac.htm We landed once in Helmut and had to look for runway lights...a pickup had to come out and find us. Once landed on the ice road and taxied up to a bad head on collision...got the patients and took off again. I also flew with this guy. In the following artical you will see where he was fined 250 dollars....when he went to pay the fine it had already been paid. Rumor has it that the judge paid it http://www.uphere.ca/node/215 Why is it that people always get fubar'd when the weather is terrible. Honestly, could be a beautiful day for flying, and we'd be sitting around watching satellite TV and drinking coffee.
__________________
Mo "Odyssey" 1976 C&C 30 MKI The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The realist adjusts the sails. ...Sir William Arthur Ward. Last edited by Mo; 12-06-2012 at 10:24 PM. |
#91
IP: 74.71.202.63
|
|||
|
|||
Did not bypass thermostat during winterization
I forgot to take the thermostat off when I ran the antifreeze through the engine. The winter has been pretty bad here in the Northeast. What, if any, damage can I expect in the spring?b
|
#92
IP: 24.224.152.244
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
It would have been nice had it been removed. What type antifreeze did you use? It is possible that some antifreeze got through. If the engine was warmed up and the T stat opened then you should be fine as long as the quality of the antifreeze was good. I would just cool my heels and wait until this weather breaks...at the bottom of this I will write one thing you can do OK. Hopefully next week or week after we can start on our boats in prep for launch. While still on the hard start your engine and hook up to freshwater. Run the engine for a bit and see how it runs. A common thing that broke with frost was manifolds. There's a dry (hot) side and a wet side. If no antifreeze (or not enough antifreeze) made it in there the water would freeze and break the partition. This would result in water getting into the combustion chamber, corrosion sticking valves...generally no more than that but there "could" be more issues. I wouldn't expect it though OK. What you can do now is. Rotate the engine over once a week. I would "consider" that "maybe" the manifold broke and water made it in toward the valves....rotating the engine may keep valves free and avoid a head removal. MMO through the spark plugs and try to lube the valves is a good idea as well. If you lubed the top end of the engine in the fall and turned it over a few times the valves may have gotten a good coat of oil and be fine as well...but for now, put oil in the valve areas through plug holes and turn engine over. When I first got my boat in 2007 I inherited the frost / manifold broken problem. Have fixed a few more in 2008 but since I got people using auto antifreeze around here there are fewer and fewer issues. Been a few years since I had to deal with anything like that. So, here's what I saw for frost damage...and what was required to fix it. -manifold broken....replace if broken. -if manifold broke and subsequent valves seized....remove head, remove and clean valves, lap valves, new head gaskets and put back together. -and I tell ém all around here to loose that T stat...that's a personal choice. That was it and it generally takes a couple to a few hours to do it depending on access.
__________________
Mo "Odyssey" 1976 C&C 30 MKI The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The realist adjusts the sails. ...Sir William Arthur Ward. Last edited by Mo; 03-05-2014 at 10:42 AM. |
#93
IP: 206.47.13.123
|
|||
|
|||
I screwed up this year and forgot to pinch off the bypass hose. I have the Moyer mod that allows some water through the thermostat even when it is cold, so removing the T-stat isn't required. But I forgot to pinch.
The engine had been running for about 30 minutes, but not under much load - just from my slip to the haulout slip, the rest was idling. I ran about 2 gallons of RV antifreeze (with inhibitors) through the beast. Up in Canada on the St. Lawrence River - it gets cold. Have I managed to get enough anti-freeze into the block, do you think? If not, since the engine has been winterized (and the carb is here at home with me), should I try to put more anti-freeze through it using a drill pump, or something similar?
__________________
Larry Bradley C&C Corvette 31 "Lady Di" Clark's Marina Gananoque, ON, Canada in the beautiful Thousand Island of the St. Lawrence River |
#94
IP: 50.51.77.159
|
|||
|
|||
did you drain the block first?
The manual only calls for draining the block using the drain plugs. Because of sediment and other nasties that can plug the holes, most use antifreeze as a back up. IF you removed all of the water from the block before pumping antifreeze through it, I would not worry. If you did not, $10 bucks and a half hour of your time will help you sleep at night.
Jim
__________________
Jim Zeller 1982 Catalina 30 Kelleys Island, Ohio |
#95
IP: 71.246.213.187
|
||||
|
||||
With your winters, I wouldn't chance it.
In fact, I made the same mistake my first winter with the engine, and I went back and redid it with an external pump. And our winters here on the Chesapeake are much milder than yours!
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
#96
IP: 206.47.13.123
|
|||
|
|||
Ed:
Precisely how did you do it? The boat is on the hard, and covered up. Working is going to be difficult except via the access via the cabin. Can I just use my engine water intake T connection? Will the water pump pass water thru it in this case? Or should I try to disconnect the water hose where it connects to the T on the block and connect there? The boat is two hours away, so I want to make sure I have everything I need in the way of tools, etc. Any advice will be welcome.
__________________
Larry Bradley C&C Corvette 31 "Lady Di" Clark's Marina Gananoque, ON, Canada in the beautiful Thousand Island of the St. Lawrence River |
#97
IP: 206.125.176.3
|
||||
|
||||
Since you 'forgot to pinch the bypass hose', I am assuming late model engine. I'd pop off the t-stat housing (if it is a late model head) and pour it in the head/block that way. There is a drain plug under the alternator that can help drain and allow the antifreeze to displace any residual water from the block as you pour. You can also pop the upper hose off the manifold and use a funnel to fill that too..it has a drain plug at the other end so you can be sure to get antifreeze displacing any residual water there as well.
If you are using a pump, I'd bypass the water pump and plumb my external pumping device directly into the side plate. I am not as familiar with early model engines, so I don't have an educated suggestion for that, but a pump in the side plate would probably work there as well. Don't early model engins have a hard line between head & manifold? You could remove that piece, which should be at the highpoint of the engine similar to the t-stat housing in late model heads, and pour antifreeze into the head & manifold that way..your only extra expense is the two little flange gaskets for the crossover tube.
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) Last edited by sastanley; 10-07-2014 at 03:33 PM. |
#98
IP: 128.183.140.38
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=13 Missing from this is that you should probably remove the impeller from the pump to make it easier to get flow through it.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
#99
IP: 206.47.13.123
|
|||
|
|||
Thanks, Ed.
Getting at the impeller will be hard to do given the present state of the boat, but it is doable. Do you think a drill pump will be adequate for the task? I don't have an electric pump of any kind, so will have to buy something, and a drill pump is probably the cheapest. Moyer says that my engine (it is one of his rebuilds, about 6 years old) has the mod to allow flow through the thermostat even when it is closed, so I should not have to remove the T-stat. I never have done so in the past, just use vice-grips to pinch off the bypass hose.
__________________
Larry Bradley C&C Corvette 31 "Lady Di" Clark's Marina Gananoque, ON, Canada in the beautiful Thousand Island of the St. Lawrence River |
#100
IP: 128.183.140.38
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
New Product - DC circuit replacement kit for the Atomic 4 | Don Moyer | Electrical | 9 | 05-11-2013 03:26 PM |
atomic 4 mechanics in the east end of long island? | wehrmannr@aol.com | Good Guys | 1 | 05-03-2011 08:01 AM |
atomic 4 gas engine for sailboats | FRED MIRRA | For Sale - Engines and Engine Parts | 1 | 10-14-2005 10:41 AM |
Surveying an Atomic 4 | dwight yachuk | General Interest | 4 | 04-08-2005 01:34 PM |
Low speed issue - Atomic 2 | fjoyal | Troubleshooting | 1 | 01-10-2005 11:29 PM |