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  #76   IP: 206.125.176.5
Old 09-04-2012, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prstack7 View Post
Is there any problem with simply draining the block instead of filling with anti-freeze? Secondly, is there a need to drain water out of the entire exhaust?
prstack,

This is how my boat was winterized for the first 31 years by the P.O. I personally don't like this method, but it worked.

Since I've owned it, I chose to pickle it with pink RV antifreeze in the winter before converting to FWC this summer. I'll probably use green antifreeze in the raw water side of the system now, since it is only a couple feet of hose & the HX now that still has raw water in it.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:32 PM
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Winterizing

I removed the thermostat to pump antifreeze through my salt water cooled engine. With the bypass clamped off I have no flow of coolant through the engine (no coolant being discharged out the exhaust). If I remove the clamp from the bypass there is coolant out the exhaust as normal. The engine is running normally with no overheating. Any idea why I am not getting a flow of coolant through the engine?
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:12 PM
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alternative method?

i have the original thin blue a-4 owner's manual. it gives 2 ways to winterize:

1 -- basically as don recommends, pumping in antifreeze

-- or --

2 -- no antifreeze -- just remove the drain plugs [including the rear one on the manifold] and the impeller cover on the water pump and let everything drain out.

thus, i did # 2 this year, seeing as

  • buffalo winters aren't nearly what they used to be and
  • the water in my r/w cooled a4 [no thermostat] is fresh lake water, not salt, and
  • i don't know if the batteries even will turn the starter over at this point and
  • i have other things to do....

so...do tell -- is there any good reason not to do it that way?

also -- while i'm at it...when i decide to flush the cooling system....
  • what are the pros and cons of using one of the many flush solutions made for auto motors?
  • what about clr?

and if filling with antifreeze per method 1,
  • what about adding some automotive anti rust solution?
  • and is pure antifreeze preferable to the usual 50-50 blend?

thank you all -- and have a good winter!
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithems View Post
...
so...do tell -- is there any good reason not to do it that way?
I've never felt comfortable with the possibility that pockets of water will remain somewhere, such as in the low end of the manifold, and crack things when they freeze.

Even if the motor's not runable, it's pretty easy to winterize it by disconnecting the cooling water inlet at the side plate, and the cooling water outlet at the manifold, and use a small electric pump to circulate anti-freeze through the engine & manifold. If you have a late model, be sure to remove the thermostat and clamp off the bypass hose.

I've used a small pump meant for an outdoor fountain. I understand the inexpensive drill-mounted pumps work too.

Also, if you have a waterlift muffler, don't forget to drain that too, or pour a bunch of anti-freeze in there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by keithems View Post
... is pure antifreeze preferable to the usual 50-50 blend?
Definitely not! A 50-50 mix will have a lower freezing point than pure anti-freeze.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:27 PM
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fwiw

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Originally Posted by old-sailer View Post
True, but my concern is the wet clutch. 30 weight oil from the 70's and 80's is substantially different from the modern oils. Oils now have additives not available back then. While possibly good for the engine parts they are not good for the clutch. I have seen wet clutches destroyed by modern oils. Thus my experiment as you call it.

Actually Robert Hess, our Canadian equivalent of Don Moyer recommends 10W40 oil for use up here because of the operating temperature in which the A4 is expected to run in our colder water.
i used to have slippage all the time.....until i got the cohones to adjust the reversing gear properly

now no slippage -- and seems to make no difference what the motor oil is [within reason, of course]

my original a4 manual recommends straight 30 wt OR 10W30
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
I've never felt comfortable with the possibility that pockets of water will remain somewhere, such as in the low end of the manifold, and crack things when they freeze.
i think that drain plug is at the low end of the manifold

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
Even if the motor's not runable, it's pretty easy to winterize it by disconnecting the cooling water inlet at the side plate, and the cooling water outlet at the manifold, and use a small electric pump to circulate anti-freeze through the engine & manifold. If you have a late model, be sure to remove the thermostat and clamp off the bypass hose.
no thermostat

i think i'll just take out the thermostat holder and pour antifreeze in from there

Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
I've used a small pump meant for an outdoor fountain. I understand the inexpensive drill-mounted pumps work too.

Also, if you have a waterlift muffler, don't forget to drain that too, or pour a bunch of anti-freeze in there.
yes -- thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
Definitely not! A 50-50 mix will have a lower freezing point than pure anti-freeze.
i don't think so -- usually the higher the antifreeze / water ratio, the lower the freeze point -- i'm just wondering if full antifreeze will be a problem -- it's not like a car -- since i have raw water cooling. i won't be operating with it, it just sits there for the winter.
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  #82   IP: 128.183.140.38
Old 12-05-2012, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithems View Post
i don't think so -- usually the higher the antifreeze / water ratio, the lower the freeze point --

That's only true up to a point, after which the curve turns around.

Take for example automotive anti-freeze, which is based on ethylene-glycol:



As you can see, beyond about a 70% solution, the freezing point starts to come back up from a low of about -52C , with a pure anti-freeze solution only having a freezing point of -20C.

(reference graph from http://www.veximchem.com/products%20...ntifreeze.html)
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:42 PM
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very interesting!

somehow, i knew you knew what you were talking about!

so now i know why they always recommend a 70% concentration....

thank you!

although, i wonder...is there any harm in 100%? yes, i know it's not as low a freezing point...but -20 f is ok --even here in buffalo -- esp. given global warming

so is there another problem like increased corrosion? i know -- or at least have read -- that anti freeze is really corrosive, rust promoting, and they add rust inhibitors to combat that, but the rust inhibitors wear out much quicker than the antifreeze [glycol] does, etc.,etc.

k
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  #84   IP: 138.88.62.64
Old 12-05-2012, 08:48 PM
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Ed, Thanks for that graph. I almost replied to keithems, but i didn't have any data to back it up, so I kept my mouth shut. But, I knew green anti-freeze @ 100% froze before the 50/50 mix. Glad someone has time to research & publish the details.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithems View Post
somehow, i knew you knew what you were talking about!

so now i know why they always recommend a 70% concentration....

thank you!

although, i wonder...is there any harm in 100%? yes, i know it's not as low a freezing point...but -20 f is ok --even here in buffalo -- esp. given global warming

That is -20 Centigrade. Which translates to only -4 Farenheit.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:59 PM
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Smile Lets talk cold.

70 percent concentration isn't necessary for us. By no means use antifreeze with cutting it though. We used 50 / 50 in the Arctic without problems. I've seen some do 60 /40 but not many. How far up? ...Tuktoyuktuk NWT. Even Russ will get away with 50 /50 without problems.


Attached are a few pics. I was the medic up North and worked on that rig for about a year....spent 10 winters up there....It's 110 miles North of Tuktoyuktuk NWT iced in ... in the Beaufort sea. The aircraft. It's a Ken Borek Air Twin Otter....I did a few medevacs in those in my time...fly in anything, land in anything, and come out of anywhere.
Attached Images
  
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Last edited by Mo; 12-06-2012 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:19 PM
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Great pics, Mo.

I could never live that far north. - Maryland is still too far north for me except that the cruising grounds are fabulous here in the summer (and the Patuxent River Naval Air Station that keeps me employed is smack dab in the middle of the Chesapeake Bay.)

I've been cruising the Chesapeake for almost 40 years and there are still places I haven't been to.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo View Post
70 percent concentration isn't necessary for us. By no means use antifreeze with cutting it though. We used 50 / 50 in the Arctic without problems. I've seen some do 60 /40 but not many. How far up? ...Tuktoyuktuk NWT. Even Russ will get away with 50 /50 without problems.


Attached are a few pics. I was the medic up North and worked on that rig for about a year....spent 10 winters up there....It's 110 miles North of Tuktoyuktuk NWT iced in ... in the Beaufort sea. The aircraft. It's a Ken Borek Air Twin Otter....I did a few medevacs in those in my time...fly in anything, land in anything, and come out of anywhere.
i have about 1000 hrs or more in the dhc-8 twin otter -- flew for pilgrim airlines, the first us operator, based in groton / new london ct......flew down to lga, jfk, over to hvn, bdl, and up to bos, and yul.

used to land and take off on stol runways at jfk, lga, and bos -- basically 1500' taxiways -- with 19 passengers, baggage, and fuel.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by edwardc View Post
That is -20 Centigrade. Which translates to only -4 Farenheit.
right -- knew it as soon as i wrote it

but even -4 f is below what we have here these days. it was around 60 f day before yesterday.
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Old 12-06-2012, 06:26 PM
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Shawn,

We don't "live" up there...we "survive" up there. Every move has to be calculated. One thing we always did was make sure our gear was working right ...if it breaks down you can freeze to death. I had an F350 Ford 4x4 diesel up there and not once did it let me down...I looked after it. Those that didn't look after their rigs soon learned that it will get you in trouble. Maybe that's why I try to stay ahead of the game with the boat as well.

Keith, I always loved the twin otter...I'm not a pilot, just a medic, but it was normally me and 2 pilots hanging around day in day out...and when the calls came in we went. I remember one night doing a medevac and the patient was stable...I was looking out the window on a full moon light. Looking down on the snow covered tundra was something else...almost like the lights were dimmed....anyway, I don't get to see that everyday. That plane in the pic is the one that did the rescue at the south pole back in 2001.

For you Pilots
http://polarflight-online.tripod.com/SPmedevac.htm We landed once in Helmut and had to look for runway lights...a pickup had to come out and find us. Once landed on the ice road and taxied up to a bad head on collision...got the patients and took off again.
I also flew with this guy. In the following artical you will see where he was fined 250 dollars....when he went to pay the fine it had already been paid. Rumor has it that the judge paid it http://www.uphere.ca/node/215
Why is it that people always get fubar'd when the weather is terrible. Honestly, could be a beautiful day for flying, and we'd be sitting around watching satellite TV and drinking coffee.
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Last edited by Mo; 12-06-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:16 AM
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Did not bypass thermostat during winterization

I forgot to take the thermostat off when I ran the antifreeze through the engine. The winter has been pretty bad here in the Northeast. What, if any, damage can I expect in the spring?b
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by tominny View Post
I forgot to take the thermostat off when I ran the antifreeze through the engine. The winter has been pretty bad here in the Northeast. What, if any, damage can I expect in the spring?b
Hi,
It would have been nice had it been removed. What type antifreeze did you use? It is possible that some antifreeze got through. If the engine was warmed up and the T stat opened then you should be fine as long as the quality of the antifreeze was good.

I would just cool my heels and wait until this weather breaks...at the bottom of this I will write one thing you can do OK. Hopefully next week or week after we can start on our boats in prep for launch. While still on the hard start your engine and hook up to freshwater. Run the engine for a bit and see how it runs.

A common thing that broke with frost was manifolds. There's a dry (hot) side and a wet side. If no antifreeze (or not enough antifreeze) made it in there the water would freeze and break the partition. This would result in water getting into the combustion chamber, corrosion sticking valves...generally no more than that but there "could" be more issues. I wouldn't expect it though OK.

What you can do now is. Rotate the engine over once a week. I would "consider" that "maybe" the manifold broke and water made it in toward the valves....rotating the engine may keep valves free and avoid a head removal. MMO through the spark plugs and try to lube the valves is a good idea as well. If you lubed the top end of the engine in the fall and turned it over a few times the valves may have gotten a good coat of oil and be fine as well...but for now, put oil in the valve areas through plug holes and turn engine over.

When I first got my boat in 2007 I inherited the frost / manifold broken problem. Have fixed a few more in 2008 but since I got people using auto antifreeze around here there are fewer and fewer issues. Been a few years since I had to deal with anything like that.

So, here's what I saw for frost damage...and what was required to fix it.
-manifold broken....replace if broken.
-if manifold broke and subsequent valves seized....remove head, remove and clean valves, lap valves, new head gaskets and put back together.
-and I tell ém all around here to loose that T stat...that's a personal choice.

That was it and it generally takes a couple to a few hours to do it depending on access.
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Old 10-06-2014, 05:30 PM
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I screwed up this year and forgot to pinch off the bypass hose. I have the Moyer mod that allows some water through the thermostat even when it is cold, so removing the T-stat isn't required. But I forgot to pinch.

The engine had been running for about 30 minutes, but not under much load - just from my slip to the haulout slip, the rest was idling. I ran about 2 gallons of RV antifreeze (with inhibitors) through the beast.

Up in Canada on the St. Lawrence River - it gets cold. Have I managed to get enough anti-freeze into the block, do you think? If not, since the engine has been winterized (and the carb is here at home with me), should I try to put more anti-freeze through it using a drill pump, or something similar?
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Old 10-06-2014, 06:06 PM
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did you drain the block first?

The manual only calls for draining the block using the drain plugs. Because of sediment and other nasties that can plug the holes, most use antifreeze as a back up. IF you removed all of the water from the block before pumping antifreeze through it, I would not worry. If you did not, $10 bucks and a half hour of your time will help you sleep at night.

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Old 10-06-2014, 11:20 PM
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With your winters, I wouldn't chance it.

In fact, I made the same mistake my first winter with the engine, and I went back and redid it with an external pump. And our winters here on the Chesapeake are much milder than yours!
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Old 10-07-2014, 09:23 AM
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Ed:

Precisely how did you do it? The boat is on the hard, and covered up. Working is going to be difficult except via the access via the cabin.

Can I just use my engine water intake T connection? Will the water pump pass water thru it in this case? Or should I try to disconnect the water hose where it connects to the T on the block and connect there?

The boat is two hours away, so I want to make sure I have everything I need in the way of tools, etc.

Any advice will be welcome.
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Old 10-07-2014, 03:19 PM
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Since you 'forgot to pinch the bypass hose', I am assuming late model engine. I'd pop off the t-stat housing (if it is a late model head) and pour it in the head/block that way. There is a drain plug under the alternator that can help drain and allow the antifreeze to displace any residual water from the block as you pour. You can also pop the upper hose off the manifold and use a funnel to fill that too..it has a drain plug at the other end so you can be sure to get antifreeze displacing any residual water there as well.

If you are using a pump, I'd bypass the water pump and plumb my external pumping device directly into the side plate.

I am not as familiar with early model engines, so I don't have an educated suggestion for that, but a pump in the side plate would probably work there as well. Don't early model engins have a hard line between head & manifold? You could remove that piece, which should be at the highpoint of the engine similar to the t-stat housing in late model heads, and pour antifreeze into the head & manifold that way..your only extra expense is the two little flange gaskets for the crossover tube.
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Old 10-07-2014, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhbradley View Post
Ed:

Precisely how did you do it? The boat is on the hard, and covered up. Working is going to be difficult except via the access via the cabin.
Here's a step-by-step of how to winterize without running the engine:

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=13

Missing from this is that you should probably remove the impeller from the pump to make it easier to get flow through it.
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Old 10-07-2014, 07:35 PM
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Thanks, Ed.

Getting at the impeller will be hard to do given the present state of the boat, but it is doable.

Do you think a drill pump will be adequate for the task? I don't have an electric pump of any kind, so will have to buy something, and a drill pump is probably the cheapest.

Moyer says that my engine (it is one of his rebuilds, about 6 years old) has the mod to allow flow through the thermostat even when it is closed, so I should not have to remove the T-stat. I never have done so in the past, just use vice-grips to pinch off the bypass hose.
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Old 10-08-2014, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhbradley View Post
Getting at the impeller will be hard to do given the present state of the boat, but it is doable...
If it's too hard, an alternative is to go in after the pump by disconnecting the outlet hose of the pump and hooking up your drill pump there, as Shawn suggests.


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Originally Posted by lhbradley View Post
...Do you think a drill pump will be adequate for the task? I don't have an electric pump of any kind, so will have to buy something, and a drill pump is probably the cheapest.
It should be fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lhbradley View Post
Moyer says that my engine (it is one of his rebuilds, about 6 years old) has the mod to allow flow through the thermostat even when it is closed, so I should not have to remove the T-stat. I never have done so in the past, just use vice-grips to pinch off the bypass hose.
As I recall, the mod was a small hole drilled in the thermostat plate. It may take a long time to push 1 1/2 gallons of antifreeze through that hole, but it should work fine (if slowly) as long as the bypass is pinched shut. When pinching the bypass, I like to use either a vise-grip or a C-clamp with a pair of flat craft sticks (aka popsicle sticks) between the clamp and the hose to protect the hose from damage.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed
1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

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