A-4 dies at higher RPMs and smokes

[pearsontriton28]

Hello, I decided to comment on your post because it seems that your lawn mower guy assumes that if you buy gas at a marina, it is ethanol free. In the mid-Chesapeake Bay where I am, I have found ZERO marinas with E-0 gas. There are a few non-marina places (like restaurants with a fuel dock) that do sell E-0, but I generally source my E-o gas from a land based fuel company via jerry cans.

If you really want to make sure you are running E-0 gas, I have found this site pretty reliable.

https://www.pure-gas.org/

Neil and I and others on the forum have gone round and round with E-0 vs. E-10..all good discussion. I prefer to lug E-0 to my boat in jerry cans.

Let's hope the junk in the jet was the issue!

hello, thanks for commenting. living in the great lakes region where trailerable fishing boats are king, we have a gas station nearby that sells "marine gasoline" that may contain .005 % ethanol. I guess this is as close to e free as you can get in my neck of the woods. he was suggesting I go there for gas. Consumer Report is reporting small engine issues with gasoline containing 10% ethanol. The federal government is now allowing up to 15% ethanol in our gasoline. My marina claims to be low to no ethanol. Ive been using that for the boat over the last several weeks and haven't noticed any accumulation of water in my fuel/water separator bowl.

[sastanley]

Roger on all that. It is great that you have almost-no-ethanol sources of fuel. I would for sure use them if they are not too inconvenient.

Marine gas up there is different than marine gas down here..most marinas here have the same E-10 garbage as the Sheetz/Wawa/Exxon car pumps.

[pearsontriton28]

Roger on all that. It is great that you have almost-no-ethanol sources of fuel. I would for sure use them if they are not too inconvenient.

Marine gas up there is different than marine gas down here..most marinas here have the same E-10 garbage as the Sheetz/Wawa/Exxon car pumps.

I'm pretty sure Ive read marine gas can vary in ethanol percentages depending where you go. Your post would confirm that for me. I don't use my lawn mower or boat gas up quickly, so I would have plenty of time to accumulate water in the tank. For instance last season and early this season, before I figured I had a moisture problem and started using marine gas , I observed that it took two weeks between the point of adding a fresh tank of gas and to the point the engine not able to start. I remedied this by emptying the tank, cleaning the carb (with exception to the main jet) and adding fresh gas. I would go another two weeks to no start, then repeat all over again. At the risk of receiving criticism, I have to admit I went through a few of these 2 week cycles before I figured moisture was the culprit. I'm pretty sure all the rust and rust particulate were the result of my moisture issues of last season and early this season. I can see where those who use their fuel quickly so as not accumulate much moisture may not have a problem with ethanol, but as for me, You can place me firmly in the no ethanol camp.

[JOHN COOKSON]

. I remedied this by emptying the tank, cleaning the carb (with exception to the main jet) and adding fresh gas. I would go another two weeks to no start, then repeat all over again. At the risk of receiving criticism, I have to admit I went through a few of these 2 week cycles before I figured moisture was the culprit. I'm pretty sure all the rust and rust particulate were the result of my moisture issues of last season and early this season. I can see where those who use their fuel quickly so as not accumulate much moisture may not have a problem with ethanol, but as for me, You can place me firmly in the no ethanol camp.

Did you clean the tank or just empty it?
Ethanol has a detergent or scouring action in addition to pulling in water. What material is the tank made of? The frequent mention of rust makes me think of an iron tank. This story may not be over yet. Lots of rust will overwhelm the polishing filter quickly. Maybe switching to non ethanol gas will end the problems. Hope so.

In any case good to hear you got 'er going.

TRUE GRIT

[pearsontriton28]

Did you clean the tank or just empty it?
Ethanol has a detergent or scouring action in addition to pulling in water. What material is the tank made of? The frequent mention of rust makes me think of an iron tank. This story may not be over yet. Lots of rust will overwhelm the polishing filter quickly. Maybe switching to non ethanol gas will end the problems. Hope so.

In any case good to hear you got 'er going.

TRUE GRIT

Thanks. The tank is made of monel, similar to galvanized. All the rust I’ve found has been in the carb. I haven’t found it in my polishing filter or in the sediment bowel...yet.

[tenders]

After you mentioned that you used non-ethanol gas in your tank, I believe Neil‘s point about ethanol was the ethanol is blamed for all manner of carburetor problems when in fact many of those problems are caused by old components, poor maintenance, or both.

I find ethanol an annoyance that should be removed from the fuel recipe in the first place...but not a hindrance. I use ethanol-laden gas station fuel exclusively in my tank, but treat it with Sta-Bil without fail regardless of the season. In the spring I try to run down the leftover fuel from the previous season before adding fresh fuel to the tank - this year the first time I added fuel was last week. I have a Racor canister filter before the fuel pump and a polishing filter between the pump and the carb. I can’t say I’ve ever had an ethanol issue, and there have been two entire seasons that the boat spent out of the water, 2009 and 2015, unused. Both times after launching the engine didn’t seem to notice the old fuel, although maybe the exhaust smelled a bit funky.

My understanding is that ethanol eventually causes old fuel to turn into an orange goo that doesn’t tend to dissolve in the presence of new fuel. Flakes and other solids probably come from rust and other oxides from decomposing tanks, pumps, hoses, and carb bodies. Perhaps ethanol hastens these problems but it doesn’t exactly cause them.

It doesn’t seem unreasonable that the small carbs on lawn mower engines are particularly susceptible to goo clogging, and that the typical lawn mower owner probably draws from a garage jerrycan of old unstabilized fuel and leaves it in the tank during the off-season. With my small engines I am also hypervigilant about using relatively fresh, stabilized fuel 100% of the time and always drain the tank and carb to empty in the off season, usually with an extra shot of Seafoam in the residual fuel for good measure. (No idea if Seafoam does anything at all, but I consider it more of a solvent than a fuel stabilizer.)

So I would submit that ethanol issues are pretty much non-issues with:
- a clean carb to start with
- constant treatment with Sta-Bil or other designated fuel stabilizer
- reasonable vigilance about using up old gas before diluting it with new gas
- a water separator/filter and a polishing filter

Of course there are other issues that can arise with fuel systems, ie, water in the tank from a failing or nonexistent O-ring around the fuel fill, etc. but again, that’s not ethanol’s fault.

[ndutton]

Yeah, ethanol is often blamed for everything including kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. Perhaps my sarcasm was unclear.

[pearsontriton28]

Yeah, ethanol is often blamed for everything including kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. Perhaps my sarcasm was unclear.

no worries. I guess sarcasm can go unnoticed or misunderstood when expressed through text. I think you have a point with ethanol may be "guilty" by association all too often.

[capnward]

save the baby!

My evidence that ethanol is bad is not scientific, only anecdotal. I stopped using ethanol, and the orange goo in my filters and carb didn't return. That really happened. Maybe by that time, the ethanol had cleaned my tank until there was no source of orange goo left; it all went downstream and stopped my engine periodically, to the benefit of the corn industry. I have never cleaned my tank, except once when it was filled with diesel by mistake by the gas dock guy, then his boss pumped it out. The only time I have old fuel is in the spring. I keep a full tank over the winter, and after using up most of it, dilute it with new gas. I use about 100 gallons a season. I use Biobor JF enzyme additive. I have no experience with Seafoam or Sta-bil, only MMO. Not to worry Neil, the sarcasm was unmistakable. I'm sometimes guilty of that myself.

[tenders]

I'm super fuzzy on exactly what goes into gasoline stabilizer, but I do know that diesel fuel stabilizer contains a biocide that kills a moss or fungus that somehow manages to grow in diesel fuel.

It doesn't grow in gasoline, and diesel fuel additives don't do anything useful for gasoline. Are you sure the Biobor is doing what you want?

[ndutton]

Re: ethanol

Of the known problems with ethanol on board . . . .

• dissolves fiberglass fuel tanks
• dissolves older non alcohol rated fuel hoses
• acts like a solvent launching residual tank crud into the mix
• combines with water to a point

. . . . . none are dealbreakers. Some of us have no choice, are forced to use E10 (welcome to California) but somehow we do so without problems. If our tank is fiberglass we replace it, if our fuel hoses are not alcohol rated we replace them, if our tank has crud inside (why is the real question) we clean or replace the tank, if there's water in our fuel, why? Said another way, ethanol highlights fuel system problems rather than causes them. It forces us to have our fuel system in the condition it should have been in the first place.

Ask yourselves, if you believe ethanol really causes all these problems why are some of us running trouble free for years, even decades? Shouldn't we have problems too?

[capnward]

The Biobor JF seems to do the job, even though it is meant for diesel. Biobor says it also attacks microbes growing in the water in a fuel tank. But apparently I should be using Biobor EB as well. It has no biocide, but is a gas stabilizer. Or maybe I don't need either.
Thanks, Neil for pointing out the known problems with ethanol. Others would add phase-separation and corrosion to that list. You are absolutely right that there are ways to continue to use ethanol, by having a clean and water-free tank, and ethanol-resistant tank, hoses, pump diaphragm, float valve needle, etc. Whether ethanol highlights fuel system problems or creates them doesn't matter, IMO . Either way the carb and filters get clogged with goo, and I have a problem (engine shutdown). Stopping the use of ethanol evidently got rid of the problem. I had a tank cleaning guy look at my boat once, and he said the tank, and therefore the engine or the cockpit sole, would have to be removed, because his equipment wouldn't turn the corners in the fill hose. It may well be that my tank (stainless steel) has water and crud in it. I would prefer that it stay in there, so I can run my engine. I know the proper way to deal with it is to clog filters and carb jets until ethanol removes all the crud in the tank, but I need my engine to run dependably. Engine shutdowns are bad for business. Since my local gas docks have only non-ethanol gas, I don't have to be forced to get a new tank. To me, not having a reliable engine is a dealbreaker.
I continue to be amazed by the lack of outrage that many are required to use a fuel that dissolves their fuel tanks and hoses. Boaters must deal with the potential for fiery disaster, to subsidize agribusiness.

[alcodiesel]

"including kidnapping the Lindbergh baby"- I thought they caught that guy.

My boat never has had anything but ethanol fuel since it was introduced. No problems- yet. Hoses were changed out years ago and I check the O ring every time I gas up. And add Sta-bil.

[ndutton]

Moment of Zen

I continue to be amazed by the lack of outrage that many are required to use a fuel that dissolves their fuel tanks and hoses. Boaters must deal with the potential for fiery disaster to subsidize agribusiness.

I prefer not to live my life in a state of outrage choosing to play the cards I'm dealt instead.

Applying the spirit of this post I do my best to give the engine every opportunity to perform well by having systems outside the actual engine as pristine as possible. I'm sure others feel differently but it has worked well for me.

[Tim]

Good point Neil. A high percentage of A4 problems turn out to be external to the engine - contaminated fuel, leaking fuel lines, clogged exhaust, corroded/loose wires, blocked water intake, fouled prop, damaged cables....