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  #1   IP: 72.43.60.181
Old 09-07-2007, 05:32 PM
Herron Herron is offline
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Atomic 4 runs, stops and then starts up~stops again~I'm stumped.

Don~

To refresh your memory. We chatted a few days ago regarding an issue with my Atomic 4 which starts immediately, runs beautifully for about 1-2 minutes then fades and stops with a bit of stress, almost as if it was about to seize. Amazingly, she will start immediately and repeat the same process. I have no history on the engine and boat (Catalina 27) as I acquired it from a local Rockport Maine YMCA auction in the summer of 2006. Over the winter (2006-2007) I removed the engine from the boat and together with a friend we replaced the exhaust manifold (which had a crack). The block and cylinders looked amazingly clean with very little wear. The valves were ground and seated, the tappets cleaned and adjusted, thoroughly cleaned the water ways and replaced all gaskets. The carburetor was cleaned but we did not replace any parts. New plugs, wires, rotor, condenser, coil, hoses, exhaust pipe. Most all essential parts were either cleaned and or replaced.

The compression is at or above 100psi on all four cylinders. Oil pressure indicated is about 40-45 lbs and is level and consistent. I've removed the screen from the gas tank (which was very clean) and have a fuel filter in line. The timing is right on the money. When started, the engine runs superbly and when given the throttle-up she revs up perfectly. Then she slows down (as is a load was on the engine) and stops. There is a little oil smoke too. But as mentioned, she cranks up again immediately without issue. We've checked the neutral position to make sure she is running freely each time (boat is on stands in my home driveway). Uggh! We are really stumped. What could it be?
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:10 PM
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Don Moyer Don Moyer is offline
 
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Herron,

If I recall correctly, you were going to see if the prop shaft might be
trying to turn after a minute or so. Did you check that possibility?

Don
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Old 09-08-2007, 11:44 AM
Herron Herron is offline
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Follow-up

Thanks Don~

Yes, we did check and have made sure the prop is free. It does not seem to have an affect.
Also, while the engine starts immediately following stopping, each time it will run for a shorting period of time unless it is given about 1-2 minutes to "kind of" recover.

Ideas?

~James
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Old 09-08-2007, 06:48 PM
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jhwelch jhwelch is offline
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Sounds like you may have a fuel flow issue -- when idling enough gas
is getting to the engine but when you run the motor faster not quite
enough makes it and in a minute the fuel in the carb. bowl is drained
and the motor slows down and quits.

Take your carb. off and apart and see if the float may be sticking, if
there is any grit in the bowl, or if anything doesn't seem quite right.

-jonathan
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Old 09-09-2007, 09:24 AM
Herron Herron is offline
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Jonathan~

Thanks. I will do as you recommend. We really don't feel it is fuel related but certainly checking this will confirm or elliminate it as the cause.

The engine does not act as if starved or flooded for fuel. And when stopping it show signs of stress as if a load was placed on her almost as if to seize. She'll start right up each time but will run for shorter and shorter periods of time unless she recovers for about 2-3 minutes. Any other thoughts?

Thanks!

~James
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Old 09-09-2007, 10:34 AM
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David Masury David Masury is offline
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I can tell you from experience that it more than likely is one of two things... first, even new condensors can be bad... replace it and your problem should go away. The second thing to look at replacing is the ignition switch.. it carries current and the contacts wear out or corrode.

I recommend using blue streak ignition parts rather than delco... a bit more expensive.. but good quality. Any good auto place can cross check the numbers for you.

On an antique tractor site that I frequent, since I own one, those are the two most common problems for the symptom you describe.

Best of luck,

David
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Old 09-10-2007, 03:41 PM
Herron Herron is offline
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Thanks David~

We're beginning to believe the problem is much more complex than the condenser and/or switch. The latest theory is that it is a bearing and/or bearing that when they begin to get hot close an oil port and thus starving the motor for oil and causing a seize activity. What do you think?

Thanks for your thoughts!

~James
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Old 09-10-2007, 07:19 PM
baileyem baileyem is offline
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Unhappy opinion

If you have a condition that is causing oil starvation and subsequent seizure enough to stall the engine you will not be able to start the engine again without considerable difficulty. Seizing is not a temporary problem!!! You will have to keep looking for the real problem.

Mike
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Old 09-11-2007, 02:26 PM
Herron Herron is offline
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Thanks Mike~

That was my feeling exactly.

However, consider this. If a main bearing and or bearings were slipping out of place and as the engine began to heat up, had covered the small oil port (small hole) then the engine would be starved for oil, heat and begin to quit and or seize. As the engine has time to cool following the event, it could allow this process to begin all over.

I've checked this theory with at mechanic at Journeys End Marina in Rockland Maine who concurs it is possible. I'm up for anything as I really am not looking forward to pulling the engine again. Any other thoughts?

Best wishes
~James

Last edited by Herron; 09-11-2007 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 09-11-2007, 06:52 PM
Almer Almer is offline
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James,

I would still be inclined to think the issue is fuel related. Your theory of oil starvation and seizing has a few holes; primarily with the amount of time it takes for the engine to recover (“1-2 minutes to "kind of" recover”) in that amount of time the engine temp would most likely still be increasing; and it is certain that it would not allow for any cooling and contraction of parts to clear passages etc.
Have you checked the fuel system from end to end including the tank vent and fuel line condition (a soft hose can collapse under suction)?

Almer
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:02 PM
Herron Herron is offline
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Hello Almer~

Thanks for your contribution. Here's what I have checked regarding fuel. The tank was clean and free of debry before I added fuel after reinstalling the engine. The fuel screen (was removed after the problem began) even though it was clear. A fuel filter was added when we re-installed the engine. The carb and bowl was cleaned. I have not checked the float again because the engine will respond sharply and rev up even as it is beginning to quit. What do you recommend I check?

~James
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:28 PM
baileyem baileyem is offline
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start-stop problem

I agree that the problem is in the fuel system. Take the carb off, clean it thouroughly and check the float level. If that doesnt do it you may have an air leak in the fuel system.

Mike
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:42 PM
Almer Almer is offline
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James,

The fact that the engine will respond to the throttle as it is dying does seem to point to an issue other then fuel; but I cannot believe that it is actually seizing up; you have stated that it can be restarted after a few minutes but can it be turned over immediately after quitting?

Fuel line checks would include checking for loose connections and clamps, fuel filter condition and installation (a backwards fuel filter can do some weird things), correct hose diameter and condition and a clear fuel tank vent (my system also has an electrically operated anti-siphon valve that I check).

Have you been able to run it long enough to get up to normal operating temp? How is the water flow?

I like your quote from the mechanic in Rockland; a good wrench will always admit that almost anything is possible!

Almer
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:03 PM
Herron Herron is offline
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Hi Almer~

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Couple thoughts. The engine starts immediatly after quiting, howver each time this is done she runs for a shorter and short time. If you wait about 1-2 minutes she will repeat the above process.

Water flow. Seems excellent. Temp is normal while running again and again, but of course we're not talking about any sustained length of more than about 2 minutes.

Yes. I imagine the Journey's End mechanic would welcome the work, yet in this case he was simply offering an opinion as a well respected boat engine man.

Can you better describe fuel filter incorrectly connected and also hose issues?

Thanks
~James
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:26 PM
Almer Almer is offline
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James,

No slight intended, a good mechanic needs to keep all options open and not fixate on just one area especially when you have done the amount of repairs you have.

Normally a fuel filter will have an arrow that indicates the direction of the fuel flow towards the carburetor.

Fuel hoses must be of the proper type and size for the engine to function correctly Don can advise on this.

Almer
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Old 09-11-2007, 08:35 PM
Herron Herron is offline
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Almer~

Many thanks. I will further check the fuel related areas of concern you recommend and report back on Wednesday.
Best wishes
~James
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Old 09-12-2007, 02:49 PM
Herron Herron is offline
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Thanks to all~

Absolutely not fuel related. All systems have been checked and are working as designed.

I am pulling the engine Monday and will check and replace the main bearings next week. I will report the success or failure. Any last minute ideas feel free to suggest please.

Thank you.

~James
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Old 09-13-2007, 01:57 PM
Jim Booth Jim Booth is offline
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Your first post says you're running it on stands in your driveway. How are you getting water into the cooling system? If by hose pressure, could you be creating a waterlocked cylinder like when cranking too much without starting? That's about the only other abrupt stop action I can think of. Check engine oil for water.

Also, are you sure the spark plug wires are in the right place? I got them mixed up one time and the boat seemed to work fine starting and running without much load. Increasing rpm made it run really lousy (although it didn't stop as you describe).

I also had a carb that had been put together with the gasket upside down. Made it idle lousy, but didn't stop it.

With proper oil pressure I'll be surprised if it's the bearings but I suppose stranger things have happened.

Good luck.

Jim
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:47 PM
Herron Herron is offline
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Hi Jim~
Thanks for your thoughts. Water is in a bucket which is filled as need from the hose no direct pressure. The engine (when running) is smooth and revs up and idles normally. Timing, plug wires etc. all check out. Have checked for water in the cylinders and/or oil and it is free.

I know this is a unusual problem and it continues to point to the bearings. I'll let you know what I find.

Best wishes and thanks!

~James
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Old 09-24-2007, 04:18 PM
Chip Hindes Chip Hindes is offline
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Sorry I didn't see this earlier. Probably too late by the time you read this, but I don't believe there's anything in what you describe that "continues to point to the bearings".

I've never heard of any such thing as a temporary bearing problem. It is incredibly unlikely that a motor which stalled because of seized bearing(s) could be easily restarted and run in a normal fashion after simply letting it rest for a few minutes, or a few hours or a few days.

When bearings seize, they don't just increase in friction progressively until the engine stalls. When bearings seize, it's because the friction increases dramatically and suddenly, the bearings overheat, gall and weld themselves to the crankshaft. A motor which fails in this fashion will not just stall as if it's under excess load, and it will not sound as if it's simply under a bit of stress. If it continues to run at all, it will do so only for a short time until something else breaks, and it will sound as if something broken is flailing around inside, which it is. Such failure is frequently if not always accomanied by both overheating and very low or zero oil pressure.

When a motor fails in this fashion, even if it can be restarted, it will not sound normal and the oil pressure will not come back.
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Old 09-25-2007, 02:59 AM
Herron Herron is offline
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Chip~

Thank you. You are correct. The bearings are fine, in fact no problem what-so-ever. We did notice a collection of gritty kinda of sand like leftovers in the base of the oil pan but no major residue on the valves, pistons, trans etc. In my most resent conversation with Don he contends this is typical as stuff gets caught in many places. So I don't think we have a smoking gun with the "junk". We're going to put her back together.
Any thoughts?

Thanks!
~James
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:27 AM
hd78half hd78half is offline
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Motor Runs Then Stalls

Very interesting thread.

I recently rebuilt my A-4 from top to bottom. It starts in a heartbeat and purrs like a kitten. But when on an extended motor run (no wind or wrong direction) it will run for 30 - 45 minutes, then begin to stumble and stall. Wait 2 - 3 minutes and it starts right back up.

I'll be pulling the carb soon as it may be debri clogging a jet and then clearing. Or a float bowl issue.

In the thread someone mentioned ensuring the prop is free. As part of the rebuild I installed a dripless packing box which uses two carbon rings as the sealing method. Will check this also to see if it is perhaps heating up and siezing.

Al
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd78half View Post
I recently rebuilt my A-4 from top to bottom. It starts in a heartbeat and purrs like a kitten. But when on an extended motor run (no wind or wrong direction) it will run for 30 - 45 minutes, then begin to stumble and stall. Wait 2 - 3 minutes and it starts right back up.
There is a thread in here somewhere about ignition ciruit electrical faults that only appear when warm enough to increase resistance or cause an internal short and resolves when the part cools. Mine was a faulty slave starter solenoid on a non-A4 gas engine. Sounds kinda like that maybe?
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:52 AM
tenders tenders is offline
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I wonder how this original thread worked out.

But hd78half, before you go crazy in your case I would also want to rule out the possibility of a worn-out coil that fails as it gets hot. ie, replace it.

45 minutes of smooth running doesn't sound to me like a fuel problem, except possibly a clogged vent line, and certainly isn't a carb problem. As anyone will tell you who has launched their boat without opening the fuel valve between the tank and the filter, there's about two minutes of gas sloshing around in a carb.
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Old 08-07-2008, 03:58 PM
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Try to run the attached non-starting checklist during the time the engine will not start. You can skip the compression check.

Don
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File Type: pdf Non-starting checklist.pdf (11.6 KB, 1047 views)
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