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  #201   IP: 70.186.108.69
Old 12-15-2018, 07:52 PM
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Got a call the rail was fixed...so went pick it up.

The shop machined a stub to fit inside the tubing for strength, between the broken parts.
All welded up and ground smooth.

Managed to stuff the rail in the GTI and get it to the marina.



Leg alignment was just about perfect. Fell into place exactly.

Used up all day light just getting the rail reinstalled.
Hands have spots of 3m 4200 from rebedding the rail legs.

Local West Marine only had 3/16 flax..so got that.
But it took so long to put the rail on I didn't get to the packing.

Last thing I did is try out the tablet I got for a simple nav device.
Its a 8" Galaxy Tab A with Navionics.



MIGHT go back tomorrow and work on the stuffing box.
Bilge kicks in about every 45 minutes to an hour with the leak.
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Last edited by CajunSpike; 12-15-2018 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunSpike View Post
Local West Marine only had 3/16 flax . . . so got that.
Not the preferred way to select the proper sized flax. Maybe you'll get lucky and it will be correct but in case it's not have a solid Plan B ready to go such as rigging or electrical tape at your fingertips to slow the inrush with the stuffing box apart.
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1977 Catalina 30
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
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  #203   IP: 70.186.108.69
Old 12-16-2018, 01:00 AM
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Thanks for being right Neil. Another West store still close enough to drive, has the 1/8th size. Guess where I'm going tomorrow....
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Old 12-17-2018, 12:34 AM
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Went to another West Marine and got 1/8th pfte flax.
Have to say, typing the numbers then actually seeing the size of the flax is a big difference.
I doubt 3/16th would fit.

Got to the boat after.

Removed the blower to make more access to the stuffing box.
Made short video of the leakage.
http://cajun.dyndns.org:81/seeker/drip.mp4

Somehow the flow rate had slowed on its own.
When I last saw the leak, was 5/6 drips per second.
This time was about 2 drips per second.

Broke the stuffing box nut loose and started to back it off.
Quickly found out its impossible to move the nut far enough forward to be able to put fresh flax in. Just not enough room between the stuffing box and the coupling. I'd have to unbolt the engine, slide it forward, and remove the coupler to do the job. Going to save this for when I have more time. Its a multi day job.

Put stuffing box back together and put the nut just a a little bit tighter then it was.

Fortunately, that was enough to slow the drip rate to about 1/30sec.
Leaving it at that for now.

Did a few other things since I was there.

One of the coupling bolts was the wrong bolt. Slightly longer than original, so I had stacked washers to take up the extra space.
You can just see the shiny bolt head in the video, on the right side of the coupling.

Pulled out the too long bolt, put in right bolt since I found it.
Not sure if a slightly longer bolt and 3 or 4 washers would be enough to unbalance the coupling...but its possible.

Pulled off the distributor cap to replace the rotor. It had gotten slightly damaged when i installed the pertronix kit.

While I had the dist cap off, pulled #1 plug and put the engine at TDC.
Plug was dark brown. Not light brown, not soot covered. In between.
Reinstalled the cap and the plug.

Removed the front engine cover and made tdc marks.
Hooked up a timing light, cranked engine and checked timing. Was way off. Was set at about 30/40 degrees before tdc.

Readjusted it to about 5 degrees(roughly guessing) before tdc. Engine seemed to calm down and run smoother. Locked down the distributor.

Reinstalled the front cover. Adjusted the carb so the engine would not die at dead idle with trans in gear. Went in/out of gear several times. Kept running. I've been doing this idle adjustment by using the screw on the throttle lever. I'm just preventing the carb from closing so much. Should I be doing this with the screw on the back side of the carb?

At this point, engine pretty much starts with a flick of the key once it's warmed up.

Put new plastic covers on the standing rigging lines. The old covers were crumbling. Whats the point of these white cable covers on the cables that hold the mast?
Put 6 gallons in the tank...as I actually ran it dry during last startup at dock. Thought it was wierd it died...until I checked the clear filter near the tank and saw there was nothing in it.

Lest we forget the point of all this work....




On previous trip, pulled off too thick furler line(wouldn't spool right) and replaced it with correct size rope.
Did NOT cut the 70 foot of furler rope till I find out how much is actually needed to work right.

Have a friend who will cut the new cabin handrails from a board.
Haven't given up on that. You can see the spots on the cabin roof where the rail would go. Have the holes full of silicone to block water.
Still need to see if the ancient gauges on the boat will power up. None of them show any sign of life so far. Will use meter to see if power/ground is present for each.

At some point have to deal with the discoloration of the top deck. In areas, the fiberglass has worn and turned black. I know NOT to just put regular paint as it will peel off fiberglass(did that before).
Just want to do it right this time. Not sure of right method though.
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Atomic 4

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Old 12-17-2018, 12:34 AM
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I was gonna say1/8, but I went out to grab the spare packet for confirmation and can’t find it anywhere. Guess I’ll be inline right behind you. One of those things that will turn up immediately after buying a replacement...
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Old 12-17-2018, 12:34 AM
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  #206   IP: 70.186.108.69
Old 01-13-2019, 02:45 AM
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Not a good day

This is the result of today's trip out, when the motor quit on me at a bad time.


Was out in the lake and knew a front was going to come thru. When we decided to call it a day, cranked up engine no issue. Was motoring back to dock directly into the waves and wind. After sometime of this, the motor slowed down....came back to normal speed for a few minutes, then slowed down till it quit. By this time, we were close to shore but several miles from the marina entrance due to high wind. Pulled out the front sail just as the front came thru. The sail hold back rope got away and allowed the sail to flap itself to destruction. Got two anchors out to keep us stable and called Boatus for a tow back to the dock. While waiting, got engine started again and headed for dock. Got to a piling on the marina approach and immediately tied up cuz the motor was slowing down again. Sure enough it quit and would not restart. Spent no time doing diagnosis, just happy to be back in slip safely. Had just less then 6 gallons in tank, and EI ignition with moyer coil. Just cranks with little to no sign of firing. Have a spare front sail. Have to figure how to remove ripped sail and install spare. Will test fuel flow and spark when I get back to the marina. Told the Boatus guy thank you about 100 times. Was never in a lose-the-boat situation but definitely got rattled.
So general pattern is crank, no firing. If it does start, runs for a while till it slows down and quits. Repeat...repeat...till no start at marina trying to get to slip.
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  #207   IP: 72.194.222.152
Old 01-13-2019, 11:41 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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If you have an electronic fuel pump try shorting across or bypassing the OPSS.

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Old 01-16-2019, 10:07 AM
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I'd like to know more about the conditions. A quick bit of research showed a maximum wind strength in your area for 1/12/19 @22MPH. What were the water conditions (wind chop, swell, etc.). At first blush the engine issue sounds like fuel contamination to me.
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Old 01-16-2019, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I'd like to know more about the conditions. A quick bit of research showed a maximum wind strength in your area for 1/12/19 @22MPH. What were the water conditions (wind chop, swell, etc.). At first blush the engine issue sounds like fuel contamination to me.
Day started out with winds <= 10mph.
Knew the weather would turn sour but had planned to be in before that happened.

First part of the day was uneventful.

As the front approached, winds picked up so waves began to develop. Doesn't take much breeze to make waves in this lake.
Wind was blowing enough to get to a recorded speed of 6.8 knots, with a lot of lean.
From what I hear, that's pretty fast for this boat.

Rudder control began to get 'iffy' with the lean. Was about that time we decided to head in. Pulled in both sails. Boat began beating headlong into the 2 or 3 foot waves and only doing 3 knots.

To avoid hobby horsing, I turned to nearest shore with the thought the waves would be less near shore, then we could follow shore back to harbor. Going this direction reduced wave beating greatly. Mostly just left to right rolling now and then.
Was pretty near shore when engine slowed from normal drone. Got my attention quickly. It returned to normal sound for another 3 or 4 minutes, then slowed and died this time.

Was about that time, I opened the front sail. Intended to open a small amount but it fully opened. Strong gust pulled the holdback ropes loose, thus allowing the sail to flap and rip. About that time I threw 2 anchors to hold the boat. This worked correctly.

This was the time of the highest wind, as the front blew thru. No working wind gauge on my boat, so can't say what it got up to. Old Kenyon gauges don't work. Just sat thru it below deck.

It was a quick weather passage. Only took about 20 minutes for worst to pass my area. Called for tow. They said would storm would have to pass them before they could get out there..probably 1.5 hours.

While waiting for tow I kept trying to restart engine. Kinda coughed and did restart after about 15 tries. Pulled anchor and bee-lined to dock. Rain had passed but wind was still brisk, coming directly from marina direction. Waves had dropped to small chop, since was so close to shore.

It repeated the stall/die again after 10 minutes...did restart after many tries.

Got to marina channel entrance(lined with rocks) just in time for motor to slow again. Decided to tie up on dolphin rather then try to enter marina and end up on rocks. Just as we got a rope on the dolphin, motor died. Would not restart. Tow got us into the dock. We locked up the boat and walked away. Not back since.

Now lets talk fuel situation. About a month ago, was running the motor at the dock and it died. Checked the visible fuel filter and it was dry. Had just run out of gas. Made two trips with my 3 gallon tank to a nearby gas station and put the fuel in the boat. No fuel available at the marina where I park. That's what I was running on, for this situation.
The way the fuel fill is, its impossible for water to drip into the tank thru the fill cover. The fill is inside a locker, not exposed to weather.
The tank air vent line has a big loop in it, to catch any outside water intrusion. Air vent is pretty high up on the port side rear corner.

During the time of no start, there was fuel visible in the filter, so it was not a run dry situation. Choke/no choke made no difference. Electric fuel pump made its normal sound.

Starter would crank normally but there was no sign of firing. Did not try starting fluid.
I do NOT have a fuel/water separator on boat yet(I know should have one, hadn't got that far).

This was the longest time the engine has run continually since I had the boat.

Only things that come to mind is coil heat soak which I would not expect since I have the right ohm coil matched to the EI system, or bad fuel/clogged carb.

Only observation I could see is when I first put gas in it, the color of the fuel going thru the filter was mostly clear. This day, the gas in filter had turned slightly darker. Have a new filter in hand to replace existing filter. The filter is the first thing the gas passes thru, when it leaves the tank. Tank was new plastic tank installed earlier in the year.

Sincerely appreciate your input. I do suspect you're right. Planning on pulling fuel samples and checking it, next weekend.
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  #210   IP: 24.53.89.131
Old 01-16-2019, 05:40 PM
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Bill,

Was this the first trip you had with a lot of waves and subsequent pitching and rolling?

If so, it might have been sufficient to stir up KRAP from the bottom of the fuel tank.

Peter
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Old 01-16-2019, 05:48 PM
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Was first trip with that much motion, yes.

Original metal tank was removed due to rust thru earlier last year.

Since then I've put a total of 12 gallons in the new plastic tank.
This was done in two 6 gallon batches.

First 6 gallons had no issues, ran till empty.

Then again 6 gallons this time.

Not wanting to fill the tank since I don't go very far with it...yet.
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Old 01-16-2019, 06:43 PM
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So likely not the tank then

"This was the longest time the engine has run continually since I had the boat."

Are you confident the tank vent is clear?

P
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Old 01-16-2019, 07:37 PM
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When I replaced the tank, I put a new vent line from the tank to the outlet.
Line has a circle loop in it as suggested by these good people. Outlet opening has a screen in place and is facing downward.

The circle loop is taped in place to keep it where it belongs.
I guess I should check there is no kink in the line that would block it and that the tape is still in place.

Can see the tank vent upper left side corner of stern. Pretty small.
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Old 01-19-2019, 06:29 AM
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Seems when you go to the boat this weekend you need to check basics

1) fuel - do you have a fuel pressure gauge? If not install one. Easy to do and an incredibly valuable trouble shooting device.
2) do you have spark? As I have learned from reading John Cookson's posts, unplug the wire that runs from the coil to the distributor at the distributor end, hold it about 1/2 inch from the block/ground and crank engine with ignition on. You should get a nice spark.

And of course the usual caveats about not leaving the ignition on for prolonged periods and closing your raw water intake if you are cranking with no start to avoid flooding exhaust/engine.

Oddly, it strikes me that you should hope the engine does not start when you get to the boat again. If it does, you are looking at trying to solve a problem that only appears after extended running...

Related to that - did you happen to notice what your temperature and oil pressure were doing just before these shutdowns?

Good luck!

Peter
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Old 01-19-2019, 04:51 PM
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Because of more bad weather moving in, only stayed at the boat a limited time today.

Removed the trashed genoa. It was twisted badly on the furler. Took a while to untangle the remains and find the hold up line.



Powered on the batteries, set the choke as normal.
Engine fired right up . Let it run for about 10 minutes idling.
No issues evident. Go figure. I've read about running issues on EI systems due to overheating of the coil. I specifically got the coil from Moyer which was supposed to have the proper resistance built in but did not actually test the ohm value. As of this writing, I have no proof of what caused the no start condition.

Engine gauges are in the cabin, not viewable from the driving position.
Guess thats how it was in 1972. Was otherwise distracted but should have noted what was up.

Have temp gauge, voltage meter, rpm meter.

To do list from this incident:

need water/fuel separator(any suggestions?)
fuel pressure gauge(pump is 3-5psi max electric). Current pump is an aftermarket automotive pump. Do have the facet pump that came with the engine but it was not wired up and working when I got the boat, so just bought a new pump.

The only thing I've touched on the motor lately was to make a #1 tdc timing mark on the fly wheel and time it with a timing light.
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Old 01-19-2019, 10:41 PM
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That damage to the jib looks like more than just the UV cover!
As for water separators, I would suggest a two stage answer. Stage 1 is to annually pump a gallon of contents from the bottom of the tank into a viewable receptacle - Carlo Rossi makes a nice one, but you have to empty it. See what's there - good stuff goes back into the tank, bad stuff gets disposed of (properly?).
Stage 2 is a Racor fuel/water separator/filter.
Personally, I've got more faith in #1. Keep the tank clean and you'll have a LOT less problems downstream (which is the entire fuel system).
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Old 01-19-2019, 11:13 PM
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The jib came apart in pieces as I was removing it. The entire bottom uv strip parted from the body and the sail tore in half about 1/3rd from the top. Its trash.

Found out it was made by a company North Sails which has a local shop in this town. Guess I'll see how much another jib is, for fun.

Another slightly smaller usable jib came with the boat. If the rain/wind wasn't so strong when i was there, would have installed that as well.

I hear the racor name all over the place.
West Marine has one for about $100.

That motor running/quitting is going to drive me crazy.
I would even possibly believe the fuel was sloshing so much the fuel pump caught air.
Except....the motor quit when we had left the worst waves and it was not as rough.
Also when I was sitting tied up at the marina dolphin and inside the marina on my last start attempt, it was flat calm and would not start/run.
Probably had 5 gallons in a 12 gallon tank.
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Old 01-20-2019, 02:07 AM
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Get the engine running then shake all the wires involved in the boat's and engine's parts of the ignition and electronic fuel pump circuits. Maybe the rough seas were breaking\ making a loose connection and this is why the engine ran OK in the slip.

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Old 01-20-2019, 06:56 AM
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How did the engine die? Like you flipped a switch, or like someone was choking it to death?

Bill
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Old 01-20-2019, 12:05 PM
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First indication of trouble was a change in the sound of the motor...slowing down, some loss of power, but still running. After about a 30 seconds of this, the power came back on and returned to normal for about another 5 minutes.

Then it gradually slowed down till it dropped dead and would not restart(like it ran out of gas).

This pattern repeated when I -was- able to get it started a few times. The restarts were very iffy. One or two pops..little coughing, then the other cylinders started up when it would start.

It was NOT a flip off. Was more a petering out till it stopped spinning.
Restart gave little indication of firing off. Strong cranking, just no running.

Did I just convince myself has to be fuel issue and maybe had a blockage in the tank line due to the rough waves stirring up something? Even though the tank may be new, doesn't
necessarily mean the gas was clean. When I do put a fuel pressure gauge on, I want to have it in a spot that can be seen with the engine cover assembled. Pointless to have a gauge
where you can't get to it.
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Old 01-20-2019, 04:10 PM
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Two easy to-do's still on the list:
  1. Jump the OPSS.
  2. Crack open the fill cap when the engine is acting up.

Bill
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Old 01-20-2019, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunSpike View Post
First indication of trouble was a change in the sound of the motor...slowing down, some loss of power, but still running. After about a 30 seconds of this, the power came back on and returned to normal for about another 5 minutes.

Then it gradually slowed down till it dropped dead and would not restart(like it ran out of gas). ...
This sure sounds like running out of fuel. One suspect is the float's needle valve. If it's gotten gummed up by bad fuel, it can randomly stick shut, and the float bowl will run dry in a minute or two.
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Old 01-20-2019, 09:20 PM
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When I first got the boat, I obtained a carb from a guy who said it had been rebuilt. Put that in back then, but did not help it run. At that time, the real problem was misadjusted points.

Later I replaced it with a carb from the net which was virtually unused and new. Thats in the boat now.

So if it comes down to it, I have a supposedly good carb I can swap in as a trial.
And I still have the original uncleaned carb....so that makes 3.

Also found the spark arrestor that was not on the carb when I got the boat.
I had bought a replacement spark arrestor, so one is extra.

Going back to the boat tomorrow to replace the jib with the spare.
Depending on how cold it is, may pull the carb to inspect it or do some other fuel testing.

I have a separate fuel pump I can use to setup a fuel loop thru whatever water separator I get.
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Old 01-26-2019, 08:30 PM
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Situation update

Weather was clear/not too windy/not too cold to make it to the boat today.

Dug out the backup jib that came with the boat. Never thought I'd use it but was glad to have it.
Spent a few hours figuring out how to reinstall the jib and make the furler work right. Took a few tries but finally got it the way to supposed to be.
The holdback ropes have been tied with double knots on the sail and the same on the end near the cockpit. Should not pull out of holding pullies again.

After that was time to work on the fuel system.

Had stopped at west marine for a water separating filter but they didn't have a unit in stock, that I wanted. Just went back with small clear filter for now.

I removed the inline clear fuel filter near the tank. While I had the lines open, I blew into the line from the tank expecting to get bubbles in the tank but got nothing but air. So part 1 of the problem was low fuel in the tank. Installed a new clear filter.

Went to wally world, bought a 6 gallon portable tank(to go with my 3 gallon tank), and filled both up. Used the fuel transfer pump to move the fuel from the porta-tanks to the boat tank.

Turned on the key so the onboard pump would pickup gas and fill the clear filter....except....the filter did not fill up. Was not expecting this. Hooked up a fuel transfer pump to the tank line. Was able to pickup fuel and fill the clear filter using the transfer pump. Moved the lines back to the inboard fuel pump, turned on...no filter fill. So part 2 of this was the fuel pump died.

Was about to close up the boat and go get a pump when I remembered there was a facet fuel pump that came with the boat. It wasn't hooked up when I got the boat so it was stuck in a bag, not being used. I dug it out and set up a test to see if it would pump gas into a bottle. It did.

I removed the in place pump and installed the facet. Key on, facet started buzzing. Cranked engine and it fired right off. Let it keep running for about 10 minutes, had no issues.

Doubt I'll ever know if running the pump dry is what killed it.
All I know is replacing the pump, now lets the motor keep running.
Pump was from O'Reilly and would go from 1-5 psi. Going to trash now.

The other side of this is that much more gas was burnt than I expected, when beating into the waves.
I was expecting I would have 4 to 5 gallons in the tank...but didn't.
Have to keep that in mind.

Much rather have an answer than a mystery.
__________________
Bill L.
1972 Ericson 27
Hull #61
Atomic 4

Last edited by CajunSpike; 01-26-2019 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 01-26-2019, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
I removed the inline clear fuel filter near the tank. While I had the lines open, I blew into the line from the tank expecting to get bubbles in the tank but got nothing but air. So part 1 of the problem was low fuel in the tank. Installed a new clear filter.
Hole in pickup tube?

Bill
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