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Old 08-01-2011, 10:55 AM
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Unhappy Bah...almost the perfect weekend - but the engine quit

Well, here goes my weekend story...

My wife & I took the boat up the river this weekend & met up with some friends and rafted up. We sailed most of the way, and the engine ran admirably when we needed her on Saturday. Maybe 30 minutes to get out of the creek & maybe 30 minutes to get into our anchorage.

We ate, we drank, we swam (no sea nettles yet, in August, really!?!?) - all were merry.

It is blazing hot on Sunday so we decided to leave the awning up and motor sail home with the 155% genoa. (why not, the engine has been running great, except for that little drip from one of the side plate studs..I'll fix that soon.)

Engine runs at 1,950 RPM happily churning along for almost 2 hours..Then she starts to sputter & cough for a minute or two and then she just quits. It is a sailboat after all, so we are now sailing, but, there are early afternoon storms building all around us & we have a big genoa & the sun awning up.

So, I take down the awning, which takes about 10 minutes, and fire the engine up again, and she instantly starts, so I put the genoa away before the rain/wind arrives and she runs for 10-15 more minutes at 1,400 RPM or so and sputters for a minute & quits...crap. "OK, honey, be sure to turn the key off & let's head over here out of the channel while we still have some steerage."

So, now we are coasting in the harbor and the sails are all put away, and there's thunder & a little sprinkling of rain & the wind is swirling around and it is not very conducive to sailing in the creek to the dock. I had just mentioned to my wife that if the engine quit again, we'd toss the anchor and wait for the questionable weather to pass. So, we coast out of the main channel and deploy the ground tackle, (Oh great, underground cable area too! ) - & we let her cool off a bit & proceed to start the packing up of the boat to cut down on the time sweating at the dock later.

We have let her rest for about 30 minutes and the storms are still building, but beginning to move out to the Bay. The occasional sprinkle (just enough to close the hatches) & swirly wind is still happening, but it is clearing & calming down. We are now about 12 minutes from the dock...the engine instantly fires up again, so I yank the anchor (full of mud but no time to clean it..I figure we have 15 minutes tops of running time) and off we go at 1,500 RPM. Normally, I take a long leisurely stroll in neutral past the dock, so I can rev the engine up in reverse and practice my backing techniques in my quiet creek, but not today..as we come around the last bend and the pier is in site, I throttle back a little and she's starting to sputter but she's still running..that historically has meant about 1 more minute of run time. Today, we'll get as close as we can to the pier so we can grab a line if necessary.

She runs long enough to back into the slip and is coughing and sputtering as the first lines are made fast. I give her a pat on the head and shut her down, and thank her for getting us home again, even if the anchor locker is full of mud. I'll come back down to the boat tomorrow and clean all that up.

The storms have passed, it is 95 degrees in the shade, so off to the pool for the afternoon.

This shut down episode seems eerily familiar to the coil failure from two seasons ago, so I am blaming the coil (again)..I have it mounted on the engine bulkhead, and I even haven't bothered to reinstall one of the doors in the engine room, so there is plenty of air flow, but the coil was really, really hot...too bad I didn't have my infrared thermometer with me though.

Shouldn't we expect a $35 Flamethrower coil to last more than two seasons? I probably only have 50 hours on the thing! Any idea what the normal operating temperature of these things is supposed to be? The original coil, hanging on the engine, lasted 31 years.

This week, I am going to pick up two coils (since I never thought this one would fail while I owned the boat, I haven't bought a spare yet) and install them both in the engine box..Then, I need to figure out some way to switch between the two like they do in NASCAR. Although in reality, since I've added the (+) & (-) bus bars in the engine room, there are only one or two wires on the coil anyway..switching over would take about 60 seconds with a 3/8" wrench.
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"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:06 AM
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I have two thoughts:

I wonder if something's going on with your electronic ignition that's stressing the coil. Might try going back to the points plate for a test. Be sure the dwell is spot on so the test is conclusive.

And not that I think there's necessarily a problem, but since you recently added those Blue Seas terminal bars you might want to revisit all the connections. Rationale: worked fine before the addition of the bars, not so after.

edit:
When replacing the coil you may want to consider oil filled rather than epoxy filled, it's more heat tolerant. I've had the Flamethrower 40511 for years without issue.
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1977 Catalina 30
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-01-2011 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:34 AM
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:47 AM
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Red face

Neil, thanks for the suggestions.

I will double check my wiring..this was the longest run the engine has had since the new wiring was added earlier this summer. A couple of years ago, after the original coil was replaced, we ran the engine for 8 hours straight, both ways (uphill in the snow! ), with no trouble.

I like my chrome epoxy coil, but I guess I'll try an oil filled next, or as my spare...we aren't pounding thru 5 foot chop offshore at 35 knots or anything.

Here is an electrical schematic, showing the bus bars. I am pretty sure I followed this design, except I haven't installed the hour meter yet. I know I need to pony up the dough for some real electrical schematic software.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
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Last edited by sastanley; 08-01-2011 at 12:27 PM. Reason: link to schematic image from drawings area
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Old 08-01-2011, 11:54 AM
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:04 PM
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I'd also scrutinize the wire attached to the - side of the coil, especially the connection where it Tees off to the tach and confirm it goes to the proper tach terminal. I know this isn't involved in the buss bars but it does concern the coil.

The timing of your buss bar addition and this problem is very incriminating.

I encourage you to post the drawing in the new "Drawings" category, it's pretty good and I think useful to others - maybe after this problem is resolved in case there's a modification (although I don't see where).
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-01-2011 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:21 PM
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Thumbs up

Neil, thanks, will do..I just noticed that today...since you are the diagram/schematic king, it seems fitting that you are the first person to contribute to that section!
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:44 PM
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Shawn-
Couple questions...

Did she start right up every time after a cool down period?
Any hard start issues prior to the weekend trip?


I agree with Neil the timing with the re-wire is suspicious.
Interesting that it ran for 2 hours before the first episode.

Might be worth trying to get a repeat on the shutdown just so you can test the coil when it happens to be sure.
I'm just mildly disappointed you didn't take the time to run a full test while free floating down a channel...
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:54 PM
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I just had another wild thought...

Didn't you say you have had low oil pressure in the past?

Did you happen to notice your oil pressure prior to any of the shutdowns?
Any chance after a 2 hour run you may have had too low an oil pressure and your oil safety switch shut you down?
Then the engine cools a bit. Starts, runs, heats up, oil low, shutdown...
The symptoms fit the scenario like the coil does.

Also, FWIW... I have the Flamethower too and it does get very, very hot.
Mine is still on the engine. AND you know where I sail.
95° is a really nice day!

My money is still on a wiring or EI issue though.
Just exploring all possibilities...
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:58 PM
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Question

Jerry,
Yes, it started immediately after a cool down period and then ran for 10-15 minutes. The 'run funky' period is shorter on subsequent stalls. Before the first time it quit, it ran rough for a few minutes...enough to get under the bridge and the heavy running current.

No, there were no previous hard start episodes. I will admit the 2 hours is the longest the motor has run continuously all season, but I am trying to use the boat more. - It ran 1,950-2,000 RPM..I was working her hard, but in smooth seas with some help from the genoa. Maybe it would have run 3 hours if I had babied her at 1,300 RPM all day?

Here are some more questions from me..Can I put a meter on the coil and see any readings? voltage/resistance? How do I check those things with the coil energized & the engine running? I don't even know what numbers I should see, or how to check them, or if they change with the key on/off or the engine on/off.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:04 PM
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When it fails I would pull the center lead off the dist and look at the spark.

The 3.0 coil should read 3.0 ohms on the resistance scale.
with no power to the coil place a lead on each side of the coil + and -

Steve
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Old 08-01-2011, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Here are some more questions from me..Can I put a meter on the coil and see any readings? voltage/resistance? How do I check those things with the coil energized & the engine running? I don't even know what numbers I should see, or how to check them, or if they change with the key on/off or the engine on/off.
Shawn-
When she's running, you should see voltage on the + side of the coil.
As a proper test, you should ALSO see about that same voltage at the + side of your Blue Seas "Coil Buss Bar" too.
When I did some testing on my Facet last year I recorded these numbers:
VOLTS @ Coil: 13.50-13.57 (with engine running and ALT charging)
VOLTS @ Coil: 11.82 (with engine off)
YRMV...

And, what Steve said...
when it's shut down, you can just look for spark at the main lead from the coil and check resistance.

I think the real test is when it's shut down on you. That's when you want to know if the coil is puttin' out.

Others can give you better/deeper testing to do to further diagnose.
You've reached the end of my elementary electronics knowledge.

Neil?
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:06 PM
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Shawn - I do not have electronic ignition but if I did I would have a voltmeter connected at the coil + so that I could monitor it underway. I might also consider a variable rotary style rheostat just a head of the coil+ to make sure the voltage was steady. We are hearing way too much of this sort of issue of late. Regards, Hanley
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:24 PM
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I have two thoughts:

I wonder if something's going on with your electronic ignition that's stressing the coil. Might try going back to the points plate for a test. Be sure the dwell is spot on so the test is conclusive.
Um..OK...I am bored at work today, so I re-reading this thread..

I don't have a dwell meter..How do I make sure it is set correctly? The dwell is the duration in degrees that the points are open, correct? I haven't even looked at my points/condenser since I tossed them in the spares box a few years ago! - I also seem to recall that the little Pertronix magnet thingie is kind of a pain to pull off the distributor shaft...I hope I don't break it.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

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Old 08-01-2011, 02:31 PM
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As I recall, dwell is the amount of rotation the points are closed. Setting the angle with a meter is simply a more accurate method than setting the point gap with a feeler gauge. Both achieve the same goal.

I'd say the feeler gauge method is plenty accurate for testing purposes, no need to buy a new meter you'll likely never use again.
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:32 PM
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I had similar problems with engine shutdown after 2 to 3 hrs running and then normal restart after cooling down. Replaced the coil several times but to no avail. Tom at Indigo finally suggested replacing the electronic ignition module which seems to have cured the problem. Interestingly, 2 coils cost about the same as 1 replacement ignition module.
Jay
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:34 PM
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I have been wondering about voltage spikes and uneven current flow to the coil and electronic ignition module as a cause of ignition/coil breakdowns...I have the Pertronix system on my early model A4 with Flame thrower epoxy-filled coil.

There is a two bank battery hooked up to a battery isolater and 55amp MMI alternator on the vessel.

I bought a ballast resistor that I am planning to plumb into my electronic ignition system ahead of the coil and ignition module in the hope perhaps the even flow of power to the system will prevent damaging surges/spikes etc.

We should have motors that will motor when needed - not 2 hours and then die...like during a storm or heavily travelled shipping channel!

Any one have any thoughts or am I all wet on this one?

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Old 08-01-2011, 02:47 PM
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Yeah Jay, I think that's where we're headed.

I'm not so sure the points test will be all that helpful now that I think about it. If the points are reinstalled without replacing the already stressed coil, the result may well be a repeat of the coil failure. If the coil is replaced, it might tolerate whatever conditions damaged the previous one giving the illusion of a solution whether it's connected to the points or a damaged EI. It could be months before the new coil is damaged to the point of failure.

Assuming upon shut down the coil spark test condemns the coil, was it the coil itself or a faulty EI that damaged it, or something else like low voltage to the coil primary? I think Shawn's headed for simultaneous replacement of both as well as resolution of any uncovered low voltage condition.

Sorry Shawn.
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Old 08-01-2011, 02:54 PM
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Exclamation

67 -
Had we been even 1/2 mile farther to the East, we would have been pummeled by the storm..as it was, we got lucky and it built & swirled above us & headed east, just making it difficult to have steady breeze to sail in a confined space...one big reason to have a reliable engine is to NOT have to sail in thunderstorms. - I agree 100% on your assessment. Cruising is no fun if you can't trust every system on the boat.

I have a voltmeter in the engine panel..it is simply tied to the purple wire in the engine's ignition system. I am ALWAYS staring at the gauges, probably to the point of being anal, & the readings seem steady. However, I may need to tweak my alternator output, as sometimes I think I am running close to 15v. Even though I haven't changed it, it is possible the lower resistance and larger gauge (4#) cable in the charging circuit is the reason for raised voltage compared to last year when I was pumping about 14.2v into the batteries, but using smaller cable & 'not new' terminals, etc..

I also have a "battery check" analog gauge in the new electrical panel, it says 14.8-14.9v with the engine running. I don't think I've put a hand held meter on the batteries yet with all the new wiring to compare them to the readings on the other instruments I now have.

Is 14.9-15.0v too much?

Should we also expect that the normal resistance (3.0 ohms) on a good coil would be raised on a failed one...to the point that it stops working? Am I incorrect in thinking the heat is a byproduct of the increased resistance inside the coil? The coil/EI relationship is still a little foggy to me...I am not sure how this little shiny can takes 12volts from a 14# wire and turns it into 40,000v and sends it thru the big secondary wire for the spark plugs.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 08-01-2011 at 03:03 PM. Reason: more questions than answers
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Old 08-01-2011, 03:19 PM
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This is a guess Shawn but recently we had a discussion of allowable alternator operating temps. The caution from the alternator shop was beyond 200 degrees the insulation on the windings breaks down damaging the alternator internally.

With your report of excessive coil temperature and knowing it too has insulated internal windings I'm thinking a similar breakdown is likely, regardless of what caused the heating in the first place. The Cliff Notes version is I think your coil is toast. My guess is the resistance is lower than the rated 3 ohms, perhaps not so when it's cold but more when it heats up with use.

This fits with my caution that replacing the coil may give you the illusion of resolution for a while. Why it failed is the bigger question.
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Old 08-01-2011, 06:31 PM
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Hey Shawn-
You may have missed it, but I had an alternate possibility.
Check POST #7 and see what you think...
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:52 PM
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All of this points to the conclusion that too much voltage is being supplied to the coil. A resistor or rheostat should be installed ahead of the coil. 14.9-15.0 volts output at the alternator is definitely too much. Yes, 67, is on the right track.
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:01 PM
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Shawn,

Your voltage has to be way out of whack for it to be the problem. Pertronix' own literature specifies the Ignitor system is suitable for 8 - 16 VDC. I know you never would but if you tweaked your external regulator that high you've hurt the batteries too.

Reference:
http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor/default.aspx
first specification on the page.

Jerry,
Shawn's a manual pumper, no OPSS for him.
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:38 PM
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Neil - I had a look at that link. Just because the coil will operate at 8-16 volts doesn't mean it should especially for prolonged periods. Remember these are hot rod folks working with race cars and high compressions. IMO a 40,000 volt coil is a waste of rations on an engine with 6:1 compression. The elevated dwell of an electronic ignition system only exacerbates the issue. I think spark voltage only has to be sufficient to ignite the mixture - anything in excess of that is just making heat in the transformer/capacitor to no purpose. I think Shawn should tone the system down by providing some resistance ahead of that coil.
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:41 PM
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I'm just reporting their specs for the Ignitor electronic ignition system, figured it was best to go to the source.
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:11 PM
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Question

Nevertheless it is a fact that many A4 owners are having success with the ignitor coils and electronic ignitions - without shutdowns. Apart from voltage supplied to the coil is there any other variable over which we have any control? It would be interesting to hear from some owners who use the system; what voltage do you read at the coil+ at cruising rpm?
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:42 PM
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I think until Shawn reports back with an errant voltage measurement we're trying to lasso a cloud. I'll lay back and wait to hear his findings before too much speculation gets the better of us.
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