Repowering a Catalina A4 in Redondo Beach, CA

[anicoll]

My son and I sailed the '75 C27 'Bout Time' out of Redondo Beach CA
(King Harbor) up until last month when the A4 gave up the ghost of
compression it barely had. We are mostly sailors and never used the
engine except to get in and out of the marina.

We are considering all options for repowering: new A4, used A4,
rebuilding our core ourselves, diesels both new and used and
switching to an outboard. Has anyone else made that change over
(inboard to outboard)? Is there info available on how to do it?
How does the change in CG (center of gravity) by removing the
weight of the A4 from 5 feet forward of the stern and then hanging
a hundred and twenty pounds off the back end affect the handling?

Our hull does not have a cutout to mount the outboard but looking
at other sailboats in the marina shows many with sterns like ours with
what looks like a glassed over piece of marine plywood and some
kind of motor mount to hold the outboard and let it slide up and down.
Is that all it takes to change over?

Nick Nicoll

[marthur]

I have thought about your issue several times, as I eyed the storage space taken up the by the A-4. I have decided to rebuild when the time comes. My thoughts on switching to the outboard:

0. The a-4 is a very nice powerplant. Doing the work yourself, you may be able to rebuild for a price similar to the cost of an outboard. (Although removing an outboard for overhaul is a lot easier!)

1. I have heard mixed things about outboard engines cavitating during rough weather.

2. More storage with the outboard!

3. Center of gravity should not seriously be affected. The A-4 weighs a lot more than any outboard you would put in AND boats with both outboard and A-4 seem to perform similarly.

4. Mounting the outboard would require reinforcing the transom (not a hard thing with glassed-plywood mounted inside the transom. Installing new controls. Removing the A-4. Removing the skeg and prop shaft. Removing the old engine controls. Cleaning and painting the new space. Glassing in the old prop shaft and skeg holes. Running a little electrical wire. You might be able to use the old gas tank, but this is the time to get rid of it if it has any issues. This is a little more work than just bolting on the new motor.

5. Most outboards do not charge batteries as well as the A-4's alternator, so you will have to consider replacing that capability.

6. My A-4 will cruise at 1/2 gallon per hour and has a lot of power in reserve. Not all outboards will perform as well.

7. Be sure to lock up the outboard during the off season, they are a lot easier to steal!

Good Luck,

ma

[bayareadave]

Eyeing my rusty Atomic 4 has had me thinking of what to do when "the day" comes.

An outboard has its place - usually 10 hp (long-shaft) engines are used for boats of your size [I just saw a C27 for sale with a 14hp engine but don't know if it was a lazerette model]. If you are just going in and out of the marina - and you don't mind what an outboard hanging off your transom does to the looks of the boat - an outboard may work. The main advantage is you can get at it to maintain it. If you plan on motoring very far, or using your engine to get you through bad weather, I think an inboard is far superior.

Like airline food, people love to kick the A4. It takes a bad rap, but has proven to be an excellent engine. Excess power to get you out of mud and face stiff winds. You also have Moyer marine to get parts and advice from.

Myself, I imagine I would try to get a diesel in there if I were to keep my C27. Diesels have no fuel vapors and no carbon monoxide. Imagine a fuel line breaking down below? Of course, the fuel lines would have to be replaced, and possibly the fuel tank (if galvanized or fiberglass?). The output shaft would have to be aligned carefully, but you would have to do that anyway when you put in new motor mounts.

I see diesels used with transmission for about two grand. I would think 15 to 22 HP ought to do it. With diesels, the power and the transmission have to be selected so that they reach the appropriate R.P.M. at cruising speed (diesels cannot run under utilized or they get fouled). Diesels like to be run long and often, so if you are just using it to get in and out of the marina it may not be happy (become fouled - hard to start, and even eventual engine damage). Of course no matter what inboard you use, you are faced with the disadvantage of the C27 itself - horrible access to the engine.
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I ran across some older posts that bring up other diesel repower costs - fuel filter, new control wires, and gauges (some claim a new shaft and propeller - why?). http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...t=engine+refit

[marthur]

A new prop is not always needed, but the prop is sized to match the torque and power curves for the engine. So newengine usually means new prop.

The new shaft is because the new engine's shaft coupling will probably not be in the same spot, the shaft may not fit the coupling or new prop and often because of wear on the shaft at the stuffing box.

Mike

[superdave474]

I have some recent observations on rebuild vs. outboard options. I have an ailing A4 in my Catalina 27. I recently found an A4 in excellent condition that came out of a freshwater boat, and plan to rebuild it to the highest degree I can. Since I am a grad student, and my professors, employers, parents, and generally everyone that I know would strangle me if they knew I was spending money and futzing around with boat motors when I should be hitting the books, the rebuild is a covert long-term project. I still want to use the boat in the meantime, so I hung an outboard on the transom. When considering the outboard, I had several concerns and criteria. First, and most egotistical concern, was that my boat was going to look ugly with an outboard hanging off the back. I had two 2 stroke outboards, a 4 hp and a 9.9, both older but strong runners. Naturally, I wanted the power of the 9.9, but after lugging it around the docks a little, I settled on the 4. Much smaller and easier to move, mount, and service, not to mention much easier on my transom. I was afraid that 4 horses would be much too small, but all I needed was something to get me in and out of the small harbor I sail out of. I was surprised at how well that little engine pushes my boat. If I had my wish, I would go up to an 8 hp, but even a 6 would get probably 5 knots in calm conditions. In anything but calm conditions, the 4 will undoubtably be useless. Fortunatly where I live, if there is a swell, there is also wind, and I truly use the outboard for maybe five minutes on the way out, and five more on the way in. If I have at least one other person on board that knows what they are doing, I don't even have to use the engine except for the last hundred yards on the way in. With an outboard, you have to realize that anything over a 12 inch swell runs the risk of swamping the engine and leaving you powerless. I didn't run any of the controls to the cockpit, I just lean over the pulpit and operate the throttle and gears. Not really a safe way to do it unless you are experienced and confident in your abilites. I have left my ailing A4 in the boat for the time being, and plan to pull it when I begin with the rebuild on the one I just purchased. I may be loosing 1.5 knots with the A4 still in the boat with the transmission in neutral, but I am not racing, so I don't mind. I'll let you know how she handles after pulling the A4. I imagine I will break my speed record for this boat.

I probably broke a few more rules by putting my 2 stroke mix gas can in the lazarette and running the fuel line out of the starboard cowl. Just make sure the can is secured in the lazarette, and be mindful of gasoline in general.

I wouldn't want to go out to the channel islands, or do anything resembling offshore cruising with an outboard. Until I get the inboard back in order, my boat will be used for impressing young ladies with some inshore daysailing. I charge my batteries at the dock, and won't be doing any overnights away from home.

I wouldn't use any outboard that I was not confident in. Depending on your cruising grounds, bigger is not always better.

Emergency or evasive manovers will be more complex, dangerous and unforgiving with an outboard (unless you actually run the controls to the cockpit). It adds another level of operating requirements that you never have to think about with an inboard.

Mounting it was fairly straight forward. I spent lots of time checking out other Catalina 27's ( I am trying to get used to just typing C27, but that makes me think of the Cal 27, my first and favorite love). I decided that I would rather have the inconspicuous 4 hp rather than the beast of a 9.9. I bought an adjustable bracket from West Marine. Don't get the cheap one, but you don't have to get the 350.00 dollar model, either. I paid about 175.00 for mine. I repeat: Don't get the cheap one. I used a 3/8" thick nylon cutting board, pilfered from my girlfriend's kitchen as a backing plate. I was going to have two, one on the outside of the transom, and another in the inside, but ended up just using the one on the outside and forgoing the one on the inside because of the location of the bolt holes. I mounted the bracket just to starboard of the centerline of the transom, so that I could reach the motor easier and avoid hitting it with my rudder. So, following the bracket directions, and using my modified cutting board as a template, I marked and began to drill. NOTE: It is a very nerve-racking thing to drill holes in your hull. You should have a cold beer to drink AFTER drilling. Use lanyards on everything. Three of the holes daylighted in the lazarette, and one very low in the engine compartment that I couldn't reach to put the nut on. Since the weight of the bracket and engine is so little, I was comfortable with only three secure bolts, though I am not advocating anyone else doing the same.

Anyway, sorry for the long rambling reply, but just wanted to share my story, misspellings and all. For my sailing habits and enviornment, an outboard is a temporary but sufficient solution to a sick A4, but I would never go far from home without a reliable inboard. Bigger is not always better, and if you remove the inboard the boat will probably sail better than ever. The outboard is easier to service, though it presents unique challenges when operating. If I wasn't so poor, I would have gone another route, depending on how not poor I was. I have a friend in San Diego that replaced an A4 with a new three cylinder desiel, and all told, it cost just over ten thousand dollars. After doing my own research, I have conclulded that ten grand is minimum what you will spend on a new desiel conversion. (Motor, tank, gauges, controls and possibly, probably, new prop and shaft. Add to that the frustration of mounting differences, because I wouldn't believe someone telling you the new motor will just 'drop in' to the old A4 mounts. Proper desiel conversions are the ideal way to go, if you can drop the money. Myself, I can't wait until I hear the sound of my new A4 roaring to life and returning my outboard to my skiff.

[Jesse Delanoy]

My prior boat, a vintage Hunter 25, came with an equally vintage Chrysler 9.9hp outboard with cockpit controls. I would never swap out an A4 inboard for an outboard. I hated lugging the portable fuel tank around. I hated lashing it on top of the lazarette. The PO apparently kept his in the lazarette, but I found that this produced a cabin full of gas fumes. I eventually had a plastic tank permanently installed in the lazarette, with vent to the transom, and this worked better, but I am sure was still out of code. I hated leaning over the transom to do minor work on the engine, always fearing I would drop something important into the creek. I hated raising and lowering the thing on its bracket - it weighed a ton. When it finally gave up the ghost and I replaced it with a new Mercury 9.9, it was even heavier. And I HATED the way it looked hanging off the transom.

We sail on Chesapeake Bay, where the winds are highly variable, and often have to motor home several hours on calm Sundays in July and August, not to mention a 20 minute run under motor both in and out of our creek under the best of sailing conditions.

Last year, the A4 on my Catalina 30 came to the end of a thirty-year road, and I replaced it with a Moyer-rebuilt A4. Of course, an outboard is not an option on a C-30, but between Moyer (Kudos to Ken in the parts department) and the terrific service people at Zahniser's Marina in Solomons, MD, the hassle was kept to a bare minimum, all my concerns were satisfied, and at the end we had a superior product.

It's probably cheaper to buy and install an outboard than to repower an A4, but I think that convenience of use and preservation of boat value both lean heavily toward replacing the A4.