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  #1   IP: 72.185.251.137
Old 07-20-2015, 05:48 PM
damienk damienk is offline
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wit's end

My Atomic 4 and I have been fighting for the past few months now. And I am about to shoot myself.

One day motoring out, I noticed that the temp gauge was all the way maxed out. I worried and turned the engine off immediately. The gauge didn't move. turned it back on again with no problem after a 5 hours sail, not a problem, gauge still at max temp. For what I know, it might have been stuck there for months. A few days later, I try to start the engine: it starts, then dies. Again, starts and dies sooner. Until the point it doesn't start. If I wait some, it starts sometimes, and dies within a few seconds.
I thought it would be fuel related. I replaced EVERYTHING fuel related. Doesn't start. Then a month passed by (I was busy), and now I am trying again.
Now, the engine starts for a few seconds ONLY with starting fluid, otherwise it only cranks. The carb has been replaced 3 times (with backup carbs, then rebuilt carb) with no difference. Fuel pump is new. Fuel filter new. Fuel line new. New thermostat, new temp sending unit (now it has a low temp reading, but I guess it's normal since it doesn't even start). I even removed the head and the manifold, cleaned it all real good, checked the valves (seemed OK), put it all back together with new gaskets. Still, doesn't start (only with starting fluid). Occasionally, a neighbor passes by, and says in a deep voice "it's your carb". But how many time can I replace and rebuild a carb with no improvement and it still being the carb? I am about to shoot myself or blow this engine up. Any idea anyone?

( I do get a good spark. The compression ain't the best at 100-75-75-100. It was there before I removed the head, it is still there, no change. I figured that it isn't great but it is should be good enough for the engine to run...?)
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Old 07-20-2015, 06:09 PM
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Al Schober Al Schober is offline
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First thought is 'Are you getting gas?'
I'd drain what's in the carb, dump it in the parking lot, and see if it burns. Sounds like you may have a load of non-gas in your fuel tank.
Quick check is to connect a small tank of known good gas to your engine and see if you can get it running. If it runs, attack your fuel supply issue. If it doesn't, back to the carb.
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Old 07-20-2015, 06:26 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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I agree with Al. Stop throwing parts at it and start some good diagnosis. The check Al mentioned is the absolute best for determining contaminated fuel. The engine will idle and work under light loads just fine with gravity feed.

If the engine runs with fresh gravity fed fuel you can eliminate the carb. Then it will be time to be sure you have pressure and clean fuel. Drain about a pint or more into a clear glass container and see if it is only fuel or is there water at the bottom of the jar.

You also need to know if there is fuel pressure at the carb. A cheap inline gage is fine. This will eliminate a good deal of guess work.


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Old 07-26-2015, 10:05 PM
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lighting gas in parking lot = boom

Don't try to light the gas in the parking lot...gas goes boom...even the small amount in the bowl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Schober View Post
First thought is 'Are you getting gas?'
I'd drain what's in the carb, dump it in the parking lot, and see if it burns. Sounds like you may have a load of non-gas in your fuel tank.
Quick check is to connect a small tank of known good gas to your engine and see if you can get it running. If it runs, attack your fuel supply issue. If it doesn't, back to the carb.
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Old 07-27-2015, 07:02 PM
damienk damienk is offline
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I have to say I am blown away by the amount of knowledge on this forum. Blown away. you all got it right, and you all have very pertinent remarks. And sorry for being quiet for a couple days I was away from civilization
So yes, the hoses are a mismatch and I understand that the fittings aren't the best but I will hold on those projects until I get my A-bomb running loud and clear.

So right now:

Gauge:
The sending unit is brand new, so I guess it works. I will remove the teflon tape as suggested, and if it works better, I will keep it that way. If it doesn't, I will buy a gauge. Using a ohm meter is way too scary haha.

Overheating:
I did the test with a clamp in the bypass and no overheating. I removed the clamp, no overheating (all checked with heat gun). Thank you all for giving me the range of temperature that I should expect. Apparently, I am now fine with that. I guess that the acid flush, the cleaning of the water plate and the manicure of the head and manifold when I removed them or a combination of all the above somehow worked. yay!

Smoke:
I still have the issue of white smoke coming from the connection between the hot pipe/riser and the manifold. It is hard to tell if it smells like exhaust because I never really put my nose in the exhaust, but it definitely doesn't smell good (a mix of fumes and burnt smell, maybe burnt plastic?). That does bother me a lot, but hey, it runs. But Dave Neptune gave me hope that it might just go away (the riser did get wet inside, so hopefully, it is only boiling off). If not, I will be in the market for a new riser, unless someone else has a better idea?

And... the new problem (if you still have some juice for me lol):
Carburetor issue! I got the engine started using an old carburetor, that is close to being magic: anytime I use this old carburetor, the engine starts right up and purrs as smooth as an happy kitty, BUT I basically completely lose throttle ( I can rev up in neutral, but not in gear. NOT AT ALL). I troubleshooted this issue a long time ago and I know it is the carb fault, because I replaced the carb with another one and it worked perfect, which is why this carb is now my "troubleshooting" old carburetor. However, with the new one, it is not starting AT ALL.
So, I am here at home with 2 carburetors, trying to make a winner out of these 2 losers. I tried combinations of both, and got a rough start with the upper part of the new one (B) and the lower part of the old one (A). Couldn't try the contrary as the screw don't match (they are the same carbs inside, but slightly different outside).
So, anybody knows what to look inside the carb for to solve this throttle problem? I think that with the new one, it is the main jet that is clogged. But with the old one, I don't understand this issue. How is this even possible? I have them both soaking in vinegar right now and hopefully I can get them both to work well. I really don't want to fork $500 for a new carburetor, I already spent a ton of money on this engine lately.

Thanks to all for being so knowledgeable and supporting!
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Old 07-27-2015, 07:33 PM
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Question

Looking at your engine where the hot section connects to the manifold I think I see something that looks like aluminum foil. Is that correct?
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Old 07-27-2015, 08:17 PM
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If you are having trouble with clogging in your new carb, possibly you suggest, the main jet, we should ask if you have a good filter/separator and a final "polishing" filter for the fuel. The best way to clean a main jet, or for that matter all the carb body passages and jets, is with ether or carb cleaner aerosol with the thin tube attached. The main jet should be removed and held up to light to see if it is plugged. I have jewelers drill bits to clean them but any fine wire will do. The job is best finished with compressed air. Be careful not to lose the main jet washer and reinstall just over hand tight.
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Old 07-27-2015, 08:55 PM
damienk damienk is offline
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Looking at your engine where the hot section connects to the manifold I think I see something that looks like aluminum foil. Is that correct?

YES. It is correct. Actually the whole hot section looks like aluminum foil. I think it is some kind of thermoformed heat wrap.

Cleaning the carb: Thanks for the ether advice. I'll try that and also use my air compressor. Can a carb just "go wrong"?
The carb A (turns on in a heart beat, steady and nice sound, but no throttle when in gear) has a very clean main jet and is actually pretty clean everywhere. Anybody has any idea what can cause that/ what to check?
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Old 07-27-2015, 09:14 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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d, look to the seal on the discharge tube and be sure it is clean. That is the brass tube that protrudes into the venturi.

Another check is to look at the old gasket closely. Where you want to look is in the area over the center of the bowl. This is the emulsion well and the top is sealed by the GASKET so look and confirm that you have good contact all the way around IE a bit of indentation.

Either of the above can really raise havoc by leaning where there is more demand, thus the lack of performance.

Dave Neptune
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Old 07-27-2015, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by damienk View Post
Looking at your engine where the hot section connects to the manifold I think I see something that looks like aluminum foil. Is that correct?

YES. It is correct. Actually the whole hot section looks like aluminum foil. I think it is some kind of thermoformed heat wrap.

Cleaning the carb: Thanks for the ether advice. I'll try that and also use my air compressor. Can a carb just "go wrong"?
The carb A (turns on in a heart beat, steady and nice sound, but no throttle when in gear) has a very clean main jet and is actually pretty clean everywhere. Anybody has any idea what can cause that/ what to check?
"Thermoformed heat wrap"? I am not familiar with that product. Could it be the source of the smoke?
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Old 07-28-2015, 01:14 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damienk View Post
I
So, anybody knows what to look inside the carb for to solve this throttle problem? I think that with the new one, it is the main jet that is clogged. But with the old one, I don't understand this issue. How is this even possible? I have them both soaking in vinegar right now and hopefully
Thanks to all for being so knowledgeable and supporting!
When you twist the main jet to remove or install it it's easy to damage the threads in the soft aluminum with the screw driver. The next time you try to twist the main jet in you think it is seated but it is not really seated because all you've done is tightened the jet against the damaged threads.

TRUE GRIT

BTW: Do you have an exploded parts diagram for the carburetor?
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Old 07-28-2015, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
When you twist the main jet to remove or install it it's easy to damage the threads in the soft aluminum with the screw driver. The next time you try to twist the main jet in you think it is seated but it is not really seated because all you've done is tightened the jet against the damaged threads.

TRUE GRIT

BTW: Do you have an exploded parts diagram for the carburetor?
For this purpose I have dedicated screwdrivers from which the shank taper has been straightened on a bench grinder.
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Old 07-20-2015, 11:01 PM
damienk damienk is offline
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Thanks guys for the ideas! The gas I would think is still good, it is fresh from 1 month ago and I added MMO and marine fuel stabil to it at that time. I actually kind of know it is good now, because I just came back from the boat, where I decided in a desperate attempt to create a 4th carburetor out of the 3 I already tried. Combined a few parts, checked the specs on MMI, and the miracle happened. It started first try. I can't believe it but I am so, so, so happy about it.
However, I do still have a problem: the engine is overheating (I stopped it after 3 to 5 minutes of purring perfecty as I noticed an alarming temperature of over 220 and climbing). This tells me I don't have the full story yet, and that when I started having issues a couple months ago, it was indeed overheating (and not just a defective thermostat/gauge).

Why it overheated I don't know, but it probably did and damaged the head gasket. My repeated attempts to start the engine and run it as much as I could probably didn't help, and maybe the carburetor also got either clogged or damaged by the overheating? So when I finally replaced the head gasket / thermostat/ etc. , it still didn't start, but I do think it was necessary (this gasket was blown clearly, and it matches the overheating issue). Now with the carburetors, I probably had really bad luck (trying 3 of them, none worked...really??) but also I tried them before replacing the head gasket, so this might explain that.
Now, it starts, but still overheats, which means that if I don't want to start it all over again, I'd better find out why. I am going to follow Don's owner's manual little diagram on overheating troubleshooting starting tomorrow. I do have a good water flow both in and out... I took the water pump out despite the good water flow, because I figured a cleaning and a new impeller couldn't hurt at this point (and I thought that maybe the flow used to be better, once upon a time, and maybe my impeller was worn out... which it wasn't. But anyways).

The path to go sailing is a little closer but still far away. Thanks for your help and support, I was really really desperate, and I still can't believe the miracle that happened today. It's like it was waiting for me to be at my lowest before giving me a little hope and keep me going a little longer. This engine is sadistic.
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Old 07-21-2015, 12:59 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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A Couple Of Ideas

From what you have posted I'm not convinced you are really overheating.
Get yourself one of those fancy infrared thermometers and find out what is really going on temp wise.
Run a temporary jumper wire from the sending unit to the gauge. Any grounding of the wire sending unit->gauge will give a false high reading. Are you sure the sending unit is matched to the gauge? You can check the gauge as follows: Disconnect the wire from the sending unit at the gauge. Power up the gauge. It should peg low. Next take a short wire and connect the sending unit terminal of the gauge to ground. When you power up the gauge it should peg high. Don't leave the gauge powered up for more than a minute or two when the engine isn't running because when you power up the gauge you are also powering up the coil.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 07-21-2015, 08:47 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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I missed it last night.
Ditch the thermostat and clamp the bypass hose and report back.
We'll find out once and for all what is going on here.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 07-21-2015, 09:59 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Did you show good water flow out the back? If not remove the exit fitting on the manifold and look as well as poke around in there a bit. It is a notorious spot for bits of rust etc to gather and clog the flow.

When/if you remove the t'stat take a good look at what you can see, it just may be time to give her a flush.

The overheating probably is what killed the head gasket if it is overheating so do check the gage or get an infrared temp gun and check~ther pretty cheap now or perhaps someone you know has one you can use. The gun shot at the sender should confirm gage performance if you can't get part numbers.

Good she lit for you, don't change a thing other than playing with the cooling system now one thing at a time.

Dave Neptune
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Old 07-21-2015, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Did you show good water flow out the back? If not remove the exit fitting on the manifold and look as well as poke around in there a bit. It is a notorious spot for bits of rust etc to gather and clog the flow.

When/if you remove the t'stat take a good look at what you can see, it just may be time to give her a flush.

The overheating probably is what killed the head gasket if it is overheating so do check the gage or get an infrared temp gun and check~ther pretty cheap now or perhaps someone you know has one you can use. The gun shot at the sender should confirm gage performance if you can't get part numbers.

Good she lit for you, don't change a thing other than playing with the cooling system now one thing at a time.

Dave Neptune
Just noticed this one...asleep at the switch. That should do it Dave...agree 100%.
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Last edited by Mo; 07-21-2015 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 07-22-2015, 04:33 PM
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I'm on the boat right now. Shot a few videos and pics, will upload tonight from my laptop. Here is some information and answers to your questions:
-my gauge is now definitely shot. It was at max temp reading when I got to the boat, and it hasn't blinked since (after turning the engine on a fee times)
- my engine is a late model raw water cooler.
- the engine runs (now) but it still overheats.
- clamping the bypass didn't change anything
-the outflow from the manifold is excellent.
- I took temp reading with a gun: At the sensor, between 90 and 110. Top of engine block: About 120 after warming up. Manifold: Always warmer, was 160 to 180 when the block was at 120. At the exhaust hotpipe connection: From 220 and up to 300+ with white smoke after a while (steam I think) and a burnt smell.

Another information: I tried to blow inside the water exhaust hose exiting from the manifold (blowing out, not towards engine) and it was impossible. Too much pressure. I tried forcing water into it, it works but I get a lot of back pressure. Maybe normal, maybe not, I don't know? However, when all connected properly, the flow of water out of the exhaust is excellent.

I am going to upload pics as requested and comment them to the best of my abilities.
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Old 07-22-2015, 04:36 PM
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Let's get the water heater out of the loop. Plumb from manifold outlet to the exhaust mixer for a test but if successful, add a siphon break for a permanent installation.
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Old 07-22-2015, 04:49 PM
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Thumbs down

So far here is my reasoning:
- apparently the head and manifold have a great flow of water. This seems quite sure as I have a great and clean outflow, not too hot (felt warm on my hand, not burning hot). Also the head, manifold and side plate have all been taken apart and cleaned meticulously. So I think that I can rule out a bad water circulation inside the engine, despite the bypass clamp not reducing the temp.
- I assume I have a way too hot hot section. I doubt that temps in excess of 300 can be normal. And white smoke and burning smell (coming from connection between manifold and hot pipe) are not normal. This, for some reason, is overheating.
-what I don't get is how can this overheat if it is not where the water exits anyways? And hoe can it overheat if I do have great water outflow at the exit of the exhaust (outside the boat)? I don't understand the exhaust system enough to know what to do next.
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Old 07-22-2015, 04:56 PM
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Ndutton>> the manifold outlet is connected directly to the exhaust mixer. The water circulation goes as follows on my engine:
-raw water intake>water filter>water pump> T fitting (1 way inside engine through side plate, other is bypass hose) > bypass hose > thermostat housing > hose connected to my water heater/heat exchanger> hose coming back to the manifold inlet> manifold outlet connected to exhaust.
I checked each step separately and the whole thing together. I can blow water in any step of the way and it comes out clean with good flow anywhere I check, including when I check after the manifold. I also did the test bypassing the water heater/heat exchanger, but I am going to do it again right now with the engine on this time instead of just forcing water in.
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Old 07-22-2015, 05:45 PM
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I'm leaning towards John's earlier thoughts. I'm not so sure you're overheating.

It seems the assumption is a 300° hot section is excessive and although I've never measured one, I don't think it's out of line at all. That's not much higher than boiling water. In fact, the ABYC table of allowable materials for gasoline engine hot sections specifies by footnote that carbon steel (by far the most common on our exhaust systems) is allowable only for temperatures below 900°F!!! The point being, they're talking about temps in an entirely different ZIP code than 300°.

When we were trying to include exhaust backpressure as an EWDS parameter we were looking for a pressure sensor that spec'd to at least 600°F. We found them but the vendors were awfully proud of them ($$$). With a little internet research, exhaust temps of 600° and considerably higher depending on mixture and RPM factors are common for gasoline engines

Your temp gun measurements seem in line everywhere else so maybe it's time to get a functioning temperature gauge before tearing things apart.

A side note about the hose routing
It's unusual in my experience for a water heater to be plumbed between the engine block and the manifold as yours is. You'll get more heat and better water heater performance if it's plumbed between the manifold outlet and the exhaust mixer. I incorrectly assumed yours was plumbed the conventional way.
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Old 07-22-2015, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I'm leaning towards John's earlier thoughts. I'm not so sure you're overheating.

It seems the assumption is a 300° hot section is excessive and although I've never measured one, I don't think it's out of line at all. That's not much higher than boiling water. In fact, the ABYC table of allowable materials for gasoline engine hot sections specifies by footnote that carbon steel (by far the most common on our exhaust systems) is allowable only for temperatures below 900°F!!! The point being, they're talking about temps in an entirely different ZIP code than 300°.
+1
Those readings are WELL within range.
I HAVE shot temp readings on my exhaust hot section.
At the top of the loop (and being wrapped) I've had top end readings of 480° during summer and 350° during cooler outside temps.

Why it smells hot and the white "smoke" though are disconcerting...
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Old 07-22-2015, 10:09 PM
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Your temps were fine. I check mine regularly with infra-red
-head usually around 102 for me and hotter near plugs.
-manifold 200-300 range...that will be normal.
-block will initially read around 140 or so but once the engine is running for hours it will be around 160.
-block will be hotter around the crankcase vent where the tube comes out the the carb...normal.
-after hours of running I found my temp around the carb, down low on the block around 150.
-oil pan ( even took a shot at that) sit around 150 under hours of use....keep in mind that oil is constantly running through the engine.
-side of the engine near starter and water intake side is around 140 regardless.

So the temps are up on the water jacket /carb side about 10 to 20 degrees because that manifold is sitting right there warming everything. I ran my engine about 7 hrs straight twice, weekend before last. I was keeping an eye on things and all was good. I run RWC, no T stat.

I'd like to relay a quick note: when I'm motoring I sitting directly behind the helm. I am listening for the exiting exhaust water...it's automatic. I mentioned I run with no T stat and by-valve half open...the above temps reflect that configuration on my engine. Prior to getting an infra red thermometer I alway removed the steps and put my fingers on the head....if I could hold them there the engine was doing fine. Just something to keep in mind.

PS: 3 weeks ago I towed a O'Day 34 back to the club (yeah, another Diesel) and it was in the water all winter because I could see the rim of jungle beneath it. Tow lasted a couple of miles and I did take shot at the engine with the infra read as Odyssey proceeded on autopilot with our tow. I knew the O'Day was back there because I could only make 4.2 kts in pretty calm conditions. It was at this point I figured I'd check the engine temp as all the horsies were up and at it. Block wasn't over 145 degrees at that time.
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...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 07-22-2015 at 10:26 PM.
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