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Old 01-30-2016, 08:43 AM
sailhog sailhog is offline
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float valve needle?

Howdy to All:
I decided to do a little preventive maintenance and clean the carb last night. Got it back together and she wouldn't turn over and had gas oozing out of the air intake. My first guess was that the float needle was sticking in the valve, and it appeared to be the case once I took it apart again. The needle wants to stay put in the float valve. Long story short, Cleaning the valve did little in the way of giving the needle a free and easy fit. So I have two questions:

1.) A sticky float valve needle will in fact cause the fuel to ooze out the air intake... correct?

2.) What can I do short of replacing the float valve and needle (I'm all set to sail this weekend, as I'm turning 50, and the weather is perfect!) to solve the sticky needle problem?

Need help with this as soon as you all can get around to it...
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Old 01-30-2016, 10:16 AM
jwmurphy jwmurphy is offline
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Stuck Float Valve

FWIW: As I understand it, the float valve and needle seat assembly controls the flow of fuel into the carburetor, so, I don't see how a stuck needle valve would result in excess fuel in the intake if it's stuck closed.

A while back, I determined that my A4 was shutting down due to fuel starvation resulting from the float valve's 40+ year old "rubber" tipped needle sticking closed in the seat. I ordered a new float valve needle seat assembly form MMI that solve my problem.
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:33 AM
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An open float valve will definitely cause fuel to overflow and pool in the intake. Been there, done that (it was caused by a partially flooded float).

But a stuck closed float valve will starve the engine of fuel.
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:55 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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sailhog, is the needle rubber tipped or solid? If it is solid you may just be able to dress the seal with a pencil sharpener, a wood dowel about the size of a pencil and some lapping or rubbing compound. Sharpen the dowel coat with the compound and "with the dowel between your hands" rub back and forth spinning the dowel against the seat lightly. This often will get things working again.
If it is a rubber (butyl) tip replace both and be done with it.

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Old 01-30-2016, 01:32 PM
sailhog sailhog is offline
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Thanks, guys. I got the float needle to seat properly by dressing the float valve with a dowel. Got the carb back together again and it's still oozing fuel out the air intake when I try to turn the engine over.

Couple of questions:

What are the possible causes of fuel oozing out like this? I've cleaned the bejezuz out of the carb, and it was working just fine before I decided to clean it.

It doesn't want to turn over even with starting fluid. Is this tell you anything?

Thanks again, fellas...
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Old 01-30-2016, 01:35 PM
sailhog sailhog is offline
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Dave,
The needle seems to be rubber tipped. It seems to be seating fine now, meaning, it no longer stays stuck up in the float valve. I'll be ordering a new float valve and needle, but was hoping to get her running today, as the weather is unbelievable right now.... and it's the weekend... Argh....
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Old 01-30-2016, 03:00 PM
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Marian Claire Marian Claire is offline
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Are the plugs wet after cranking? Has something caused a air leak, missing carb to manifold casket, incorrectly adjusted choke, that is not allowing the carb to create suction and pull fuel out of the carb???
Just thinking out loud.
Dan S/V Marian Claire

Last edited by Marian Claire; 01-30-2016 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 01-30-2016, 03:03 PM
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I think you're trying to solve the opposite of the symptom. The float valve is not closing properly allowing excess fuel into the bowl. If it's sticking, it's sticking open.

I'm sorry to be the one to say it but if the symptom is fuel overflow and risk of spilling over into the bilge, that is about the most dangerous condition you can have on a gasoline fueled boat. Discretion is the better part of valor my friend. Safety first.

edit:
The possibilities are more than just the valve. For example, if the floats have liquid inside (they shouldn't) they won't apply the proper force to the valve to close it properly.
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Last edited by ndutton; 01-30-2016 at 03:29 PM.
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  #9   IP: 98.183.61.5
Old 01-30-2016, 04:21 PM
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Neil: I hear you, amigo. I'm keeping the mess cleaned up as I go and keeping the engine compartment and cabin well ventilated.

I'm thinking I may need to adjust the floats so that it closes completely. I'll check and see where they are. Since I haven't adjusted them, I'm puzzled as to why the float valve isn't closing properly.

MC: I'll check the carb-manifold gasket. I have an Indigo PCV unit between the carb and manifold, so I'll check both gaskets.

She doesn't want to turn over when fully choked. Nor does she turn over with starting fluid. No suggestion that she's even thinking about turning over in either case....

Keep the suggestions coming... I turn 50 this week and I'll end up drinking way too much if I can't get out on the boat...
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Old 01-30-2016, 04:28 PM
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The plugs are completely dry... Would this indicate a potential air leak?
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Old 01-30-2016, 04:31 PM
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Three reasons that come to mind for the needle valve not closing is debris in the valve interface (doubtful considering what you've already done), damaged rubber needle tip or leaky float allowing gas inside.

As for no pop even with starting fluid, time to confirm you have spark to eliminate ignition as a possibility. If you do have spark I recommend removing or plugging the PCV valve until you get this sorted out.
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Old 01-31-2016, 02:15 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailhog View Post
Neil:
I'm thinking I may need to adjust the floats so that it closes completely. I'll check and see where they are. Since I haven't adjusted them, I'm puzzled as to why the float valve isn't closing properly.


Here's a long shot.
Is there a clip that holds the needle to the float in your carb? If there is try eliminating it. It may be causing some sort of misalingment when there is fuel in the float bowl and the floats are floats are working.
If there is no clip then try adding one - it might help the needle move squarely in the seat.
It can get a little tricky because on the bench you are dry testing but when the floats are working when there is fuel in the bowl the geometry could be changing. Did you verify that there is no leak(s) in the float? A leak in a float will most certainly change the "geometry" of the system.
Exactly what PM did you do that you mentioned in post #1? It is not to hard for me to visualize a no start engine with an ill fitting needle valve leaking gas all over the place. Did you do any PM procedure to the ignition?
You are keeping the raw valve closed while trouble shooting?

TRUE GRIT
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Old 01-31-2016, 08:15 AM
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John: I was installing a new gasket in the carb as PM. There is no clip on the float. Does Moyer sell one, or is the clip a jury rig deal? I couldn't find one on the site. Definitely keeping the RW valve closed.

I noticed that the idle valve got a little marred when I took it out. The brass on the flathead notch is slightly stripped, but carb cleaner passes through without any visible impediment.

If none of this works, I'll be ordering a the carb rebuild kit and a new float (I'll be doing it it any case). Just trying to get on the water this weekend. I'm turning 50!

Thanks to all!

Dwight
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Old 01-31-2016, 10:02 AM
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Talking Another Long Shot

Make sure that the venturi is well seated in the upper casting and that it does not interfere with the gasket so that you get a good seal.
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Old 01-31-2016, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailhog View Post
The plugs are completely dry... Would this indicate a potential air leak?
If I understand the carb correctly. If the bowl is overfilling due to one of the many causes mentioned then the fuel can flow thru the main discharge jet and pool in the air intake area. That is one issue.
Why is some fuel not being pulled into the manifold and to the cylinders and at least wetting the plugs. Why will she not fire with starting fluid? To me this points to a loss of "up draft" caused by a major air leak.
Do you have the scavenge tube? If so was it reattached to the manifold? Is it plugged? If not shouldn't some fuel be sucked up and into the cylinders when fuel pools in the air intake area?
Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 01-31-2016, 04:38 PM
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So I have a spark. I pulled the wire from the coil to distributor and held about a half inch from head. The spark was yellow...

Also, a compression test came in at: 75, 66, 58, 55.

I'm wondering if this is causing the "updraft" problem mentioned by MC.

What's so puzzling is that this thing was running like a champ three days before I decide to clean the carb and replace the gasket. The boat is a Catalina 30 and would cruise at half throttle at 5 or even 5.5 kts.

I replaced the valve springs about five years ago and that was an utter nightmare. They were the new MMI stainless springs which are pretty damn beefy. I squirted a pile of Marvel MO on the valve side of each combustion chamber.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks, gents...

Last edited by sailhog; 01-31-2016 at 05:03 PM. Reason: just cuz...
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Old 01-31-2016, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailhog View Post
What's so puzzling is that this thing was running like a champ three days before I decide to clean the carb and replace the gasket. The boat is a Catalina 30 and would cruise at half throttle at 5 or even 5.5 kts.
That seems pretty incriminating right there. With fuel pooling in the carb you don't have a fuel supply problem but with dry plugs you're not getting fuel to the combustion chambers. Are you SURE the choke is closing fully? You have to remove the intake air horn and check it visually, probably with a mirror and flashlight in your case.

I'm thinking insufficient choke, massive vacuum leak, carb halves reassembled incorrectly or a combination. If fuel is overflowing the carburetor that's an issue all its own as well.

Time to double check everything carb-wise. Multiple issues are possible too.
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Old 01-31-2016, 04:55 PM
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Sailhog, I had a very similar fuel leakage problem about 10 years and finally narrowed it down to the little gasket that goes between the needle valve seat and the carb body. At least in my case, that gasket was a one shot deal. No matter how hard I tried to tighten down the needle valve seat, the original gasket would not stop leaking. A new gasket solved the problem ... no more fuel in the throat of the carb.
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Old 01-31-2016, 05:14 PM
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Neil,
The choke is definitely closed completely.

What do the compression numbers tell you? Is it "functional compression," as Don puts it?

I've started the engine with my hand over the air intake, and the suction is sort of half-assed. I don't know how to describe it other than as uneven, or oscillating -- kind of a woof, woof, woof...

Should the spark from the coil be yellow?

Indigo: Thanks for the suggestion. I'll be ordering the rebuild kit tomorrow. It comes with the float valve, needle and gasket.
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Old 01-31-2016, 05:18 PM
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I've successfully pulled the carb apart, cleaned it and put it back together four or five times now. I think I've got it together properly. That said, tomorrow I'll be ordering a new float along with the carb rebuild kit.

I still don't get why the girl won't start with starting fluid. I haven't used starting fluid in years (always choke), but I've never failed to start the beast when using it.
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Old 01-31-2016, 07:30 PM
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Question

Yellow spark is not as good as blue spark. You may have an ignition issue. The mere presence of a gap-jumping spark is not sufficient evidence of a spark that is capable of firing thru compression. The fact that you cannot get firing with starting fluid suggests insufficient spark. Do you have points or EI?
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Old 01-31-2016, 11:28 PM
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Points. I have another coil aboard.
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Old 02-01-2016, 01:44 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailhog View Post
So I have a spark. I pulled the wire from the coil to distributor and held about a half inch from head. The spark was yellow...
Thanks, gents...
OK, so you have spark at the coil. Do you have spark to the spark plugs? Pull a boot off a spark plug and put a screwdriver in it and see if you can jump an arc to the spark plug while someone turns the engine with the starter.
How long has it been since you've looked inside the distributor cap?

TRUE GRIT

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 02-01-2016 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 02-01-2016, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailhog View Post
John: I was installing a new gasket in the carb as PM. There is no clip on the float. Does Moyer sell one, or is the clip a jury rig deal? I couldn't find one on the site. Definitely keeping the RW valve closed.

Dwight
In an e-mail exchange with Don a few years ago, he wrote me that Zenith no longer installs these clips, and he recommended that it be removed since it could cause the float to hang up. I've run without it since then.
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  #25   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 02-01-2016, 08:32 AM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailhog View Post
Points. I have another coil aboard.
First clean the points with something abrasive to ensure the best possible contact. Check the gap. Edit: Dirty points with too much gap=weak spark.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 02-01-2016 at 08:37 AM.
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