#26
IP: 97.64.155.202
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Neil,
The info I'd like to get if possible is confirmation of size/design (i.e., 16" j-bolt) of the hanger bolts, what material was used for the hanger bolts, such as were they 1/2"-13 x 6 ASTM A307 Gr A Hot Dip Galvanized Low Carbon Steel (that might be too much, but I am weird like that), were the keels sand casted, and what was the formula of the lead alloy used. I know you mentioned the 5% antimony, but if you look at the pictures below you will see one that shows some significant erosion, etching or leaching. There are pits and some small valleys that are better than 0.25" deep. Just a reminder, this boat has supposedly only been in fresh water, mostly Lake Michigan. Lake Michigan is usually slightly acidic, at 6.5 to 6.0 pH so it could be acidic leaching, but this looks to me more like galvanic corrosion. Oh, and confirmation that the root cause of the water stains on the keel have been going on for a long time and/or not properly addressed, look at the size chunks of covering that are just popping off. The lead behind is really oxidized, which is not surprising. I suspect when a repair attempt was done, the time to properly remove the lead oxide then quick apply an epoxy patch to the surface before it re-oxidized wasn't done. Thanks again for all the help, you're a life saver! |
#27
IP: 24.152.132.65
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OK, I will relay your questions but I can offer a little more information from my experience:
Anchor bolts The bolts commonly used throughout the industry during the era of manufacture of your boat were not high spec but rather garden variety construction grade J bolts. ASTM-Axxx specs had to do with the galvanizing. Factory keel coating All keels at Capital Yachts were flow-coated with boat-lam polyester resin, viscosity adjusted with phenolic microballons to the consistency of cake batter, surfacing agent and a catalyst accelerant (DMA= Dimethylaniline, this stuff was baaad-A$$) added prior to catalyst. This was done with the keel laying on its side, one side at a time. The coating was applied without any surface prep, not even an attempt to remove oxidation. After curing the flow-coat was sanded with a soft pad in a grinder/buffer for fairness. Antimony Antimony was added for hardness, not erosion/corrosion prevention. I'll be surprised if alloy information is available but we will see. I have it on good authority that when Catalina was casting their own they were using scrap lead from anywhere and everywhere: wheel balancing shops, old batteries, whatever. Point being, the only specs they were interested in were high weight and low cost.
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Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others Last edited by ndutton; 01-10-2018 at 08:03 PM. |
The Following User Says Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post: | ||
Administrator (01-10-2018) |
#28
IP: 173.30.41.140
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Thanks Neil.
I was kind of suspecting low or random quality when it came to the alloy. I also knew what the antimony was added for; I used to batch my own lead filler back in my "lead sled" days, when I used lead as a body filler. The pitting made me think a less noble metal was present or a mixture high in tin might have been used. If I'm dealing with a random, unknown/unknowable alloy I'll just have to try a couple of trial and error test to see if I can get adhesion with some lead filler before I start the to re-wrap the ballast. I know, it's overkill, but that is my middle name. My interest in the galvanization was for the protection factor. I've spent 50 years of my life in the industrial coating and surface prep industry. Preventing or arresting corrosion is a bit of a madness with me. I'm thinking I might apply a coat of "cold galvanized" (I hate that term) to the keel bolts and nuts before I'm done to give the some additional protection. I'm still weighting my options for re-wrap coatings, but polyester thickened to high viscosity, trowel applied and smoothed out before a fairing layer was at the top of my list, I'm still planning on blasting the ballast and the hull below the water line, so if I time it right I can get an epoxy tie coat on the ballast while it's still oxide free. That should give me great adhesion. Thanks, Rick |
#29
IP: 24.152.132.65
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Epoxies were not in common use back in the day, may be a complete game changer for you.
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Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#30
IP: 71.178.88.134
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Quote:
I have it on decent authority (not the manufacturer, but Max Munger, well known in C-30 land and a personal friend whom I respect) that he is not aware of any C-30 keel failure from bolt fatigue..the "slurry" used during manufacture in that timeframe holds the keel to the boat just fine and it often takes a chain saw to break the hull apart from the keel even after the bolts/nuts are removed.
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-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) Last edited by sastanley; 01-12-2018 at 06:07 PM. Reason: details |
#31
IP: 162.237.45.236
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Shawn - that was from a shoal draft 1985 Catalina 30. The boat was on a trailer. The keel bolt nuts were removed and the boat was lifted up a bit. There was some glass over the seam. We hammered a few wedges in the seam and the keel dropped down. There was was thickened resin between the keel and hull. No adhesive or sealant keeping bilge water from around the bolts. The bolts and nuts looked good in the bilge but were eaten up below the nuts.
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#32
IP: 162.237.45.236
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This keel is from a 1971 Cal 33. Stainless bolts. There was adhesive between the keel and hull. Bilge was wet but the bolts passed the test of time - excellent condition.
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Ram41662 (01-13-2018) |
#33
IP: 71.178.91.222
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Thanks for the details...very interesting..that first one is a fatty!!!
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) Last edited by sastanley; 01-13-2018 at 08:33 PM. |
#34
IP: 162.237.45.236
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Rick - I've taken a keel off a Newport 27 and several N28's. Bolts always looked good. The hull joint of the N27 was very strong. These are all saltwater boats.
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The Following User Says Thank You to sailboatguy For This Useful Post: | ||
Ram41662 (01-17-2018) |
#35
IP: 162.237.45.236
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Here's another picture of the C-30 keel coming off.
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#36
IP: 71.178.91.222
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Wow..no junk/slurry holding it together? I need to work on my sources and beat on them (not literally).
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-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#37
IP: 71.244.241.97
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OK guys, for the sake of the novices out here. You've found a problem with corroded keel bolts, so now what? I assume those are J bolts, with molten lead that flowed around them to make them part of the assembly. Do you dig out lead and repour it over replacements, try to melt the lead in place, what? How do you get that much heat applied to that large of a structure, or do you?
Inquiring minds are waiting to learn... Steve
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Steve Demore S/V Doin' It Right Pasadena, MD |
#38
IP: 24.152.132.65
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Quote:
http://www.keelboltrepair.com/
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#39
IP: 74.84.88.220
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Quote:
If your are looking at complete replacement of the J-bolts, leave it to the experts. There are several reputable companies that can give you a fair price. I have a full workshop with the the equipment in theory to do such a project (a large oven, cranes, torches, ventilators, etc) but I wouldn't consider trying to tackle it. Simply put, I don't have the experience to do the job properly. If you bolts are not safe and the false keel is loose, you can consider two options: For "light sailing" you can sister in long lag bolts like the process used to fix a "Catalina Smile". This is a fairly easy to do option. If you're looking for a more hardy option you can go with a alternative replacement method that involves drilling down into the ballast and from the side to insert new threaded rods with nuts and washers on each end. Again, this is something the average boat owner isn't equipped to do. It takes a very heavy duty drill and some specialized bits to get this work done. With all three of these, only the "sistering lags bolts" option is relatively inexpensive, so you have to consider the cost too. I'm sure the more experience member will have more options and might have different views from mine. Good luck, Rick Last edited by Ram41662; 01-14-2018 at 11:07 AM. |
#40
IP: 173.127.2.195
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Quote:
Things on this boat are looking better every day. |
#41
IP: 173.17.99.56
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Quote:
In 2011 a friend helped me "fix" my Catalina smile. Using a heavy cloth/roving and West Systems, we wrapped the leading edge of the smile and then worked all the way aft. It took just a few hours for a couple of days. I know it isn't a structural "fix" and I was told by very knowledgeable folks at the yard that the next time a haul that the glass around the smile would surely show the stress from the slight movement of the keel. I've hauled three times since then, and there is no stress fracture, which, to me, indicates the keel isn't moving at all. Neil's mention of developing solutions on old bolts to problems that may not exist... roger that.. Should mention, my boat is a 1980 Catalina shallow draft, hull #1828. |
#42
IP: 24.152.132.65
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Good post sailhog. It's a testament to the builders of 40+ years ago that these keel attachments have survived as well as they have. Consider the forces on the hull/external keel joint especially the leveraging forces while heeled under sail. The loads are many times greater than simply holding dead weight.
I've read on other forums where dock experts abound that 1960's -70's boats were overbuilt and heavy because the builders didn't know what they were doing. It seems to me the proven track record says otherwise.
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Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#43
IP: 173.17.99.56
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Quote:
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#44
IP: 24.152.132.65
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Quote:
http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ead.php?t=8239 http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ad.php?p=81642 I believe Gougeon Brothers (WEST System epoxy) also has a poured-in-place instruction. Doesn't make it any better if you ask me. *Catalina's other horrible repair scheme that comes immediately to mind is their leaky window remedy. It involves cutting away a portion of the glazing vinyl and then slobbering it over with clear silicone. Not only is it a freakin' mess, it doesn't work.
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Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#45
IP: 173.17.99.56
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Sweet Jaysus... I've had this on my to do list for the past couple of haul outs and didn't move forward with it out of sheer laziness. Thanks, Neil... I dodged a bullet.
Not to hijack this thread, but is there a legitimate fix for the wobbly rudder post on C-30s? |
#46
IP: 24.152.132.65
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Quote:
I don't mean to imply an offense but just because a big name outfit like Catalina or Gougeon Brothers haven't mentioned a shim repair doesn't necessarily make it illegitimate. Remember, Catalina thought trailer plugs in the engine harness was a good idea too. Who knows, if Gougeon Brothers sold stainless shim stock maybe they'd have a different repair protocol.
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Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others Last edited by ndutton; 01-21-2018 at 10:29 AM. |
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