#1
IP: 96.244.122.58
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Electronic Ignition Troubleshooting
A friend just bought a Pearson 30. During the delivery home, the engine simply quit and never restarted.
I visited the boat, and discovered absolutely zero spark on any of the plugs. This boat has been equipped with Indigo electronic ignition. The diagnosis should be simple, I'm just looking for a sanity-check: The coil has power. The ignition module external to the distributor has power. If you ground the coil wire to the engine block, the coil is producing spark. This means that the distributor is receiving spark from the coil. No spark is being distributed to any of the 4 plugs. My diagnosis is that the trigger module inside the distributor has failed. Comments? |
#2
IP: 173.79.39.190
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Agree that the EI is your most likely suspect. But two other possibilities are
- The rotor - Carbon tracks inside the cap Since these are cheap parts, and easy to test, I'd eliminate them first. Just repeat your spark test while cranking, but do the test at the wire coming off the coil instead of at the spark plugs.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
#3
IP: 71.118.13.238
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See the light
Ajax, first check under the cap. The Indigo is a "photo optic trigger" so check to see that all is in place, IE the shutter and the "LIGHT", just to be sure they're in place.
Also on the later Indigo units there is really nice feature, a functionality light on the end of the "box" it is a red LED and will flash while cranking if it is getting a signal. You can also position the shutter window over the light and have it so with the c-adv you can move the shutter back and forth through the light, no spark no good. Dave Neptune |
#4
IP: 134.223.116.201
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Quote:
The owner has replaced the cap, rotor and plug wires with no effect. He has the older Indigo EI kit. The module doesn't have the LEDs. I called Indigo and they're saying that the optical trigger is working, because it's firing the coil. I'm not really sure I agree with this. I had the same system on an old Ford pickup truck and the trigger module in the distributor had failed in the exact same way. We will check again to make sure that the trigger is properly mounted in the distributor. I might get generous and offer to drop my own distributor into his engine for a test. |
#5
IP: 108.23.219.177
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Hmmm?
Ajax, what did you say or Indigo say that leads them to say the trigger is working?
Did you try moving the shutter and get a pulse to the coil? I've worked quite a bit with photo optic systems and have only replace a couple of "photo triggers". The system is very simple the signal from the photo trigger goes to the box and the box is the switch (like the points) that sends the pulse to the coil. Dave Neptune |
#6
IP: 99.90.4.95
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I don't think grounding the coil (secondary?) wire to the block is an effective test for system function. The coil needs to produce enough energy to jump the air gap on the spark plug, like a little bolt of lightning. The way it does that is it builds up a charge when the - terminal is grounded (points or EI closed, the + terminal is always energized during operation) then when the - is removed (points or EI open) the coil dumps the full charge, like 20,000 ~ 40,000 volts depending on the coil you have.
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others Last edited by ndutton; 10-18-2013 at 11:00 AM. |
#7
IP: 134.223.116.151
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Quote:
No, I didn't move the shutter. Ok, so it sounds like the EI system is functioning normally. After replacing the plugs, wires, cap and rotor, what would prevent spark from being sent to the plugs? I'm going to try again to find spark on the plugs. Maybe I was just doing a poor job of grounding them. |
#8
IP: 72.45.14.161
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With everything hooked up, take the coil wire out of the distributor and hold close to the block. Crank the engine. If it sparks, then the Indigo, coil, etc. are good and the issue lies downstream. If not, then the issue is upstream.
I had endless issues with my Indigo unit that broke down as follows: 1. Burned out coils. (this was in the dark days before we knew about ballast resistors) 2. The unit itself died once. 3. Burned out coil wires. Apparently the Indigo had a hot enough spark to degrade the wire from the coil to distributor. It was gradual - it slowly got worse and worse until the boat would not start. Try a new coil wire. For a test pretty much any wire will do, but don't touch while it is running |
#9
IP: 161.213.49.150
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Quote:
Check the timing. The distributor may have slipped and rotated. Not a very likely scenario but have a look anyway. TRUE GRIT |
#10
IP: 128.183.140.38
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Try something like this with a spare plug. It can become a permanant spark tester.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
#11
IP: 71.118.13.238
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Clarity
Ajax, when you crank the engine do you get spark from the coil? Or just if you work the wires on the coil?
Dave Neptune |
#12
IP: 166.147.88.43
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I apologize in advance if this is ill-received, but I've been taught to assume nothing...
When cranking, does the rotor turn? |
#13
IP: 71.118.13.238
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You bet it does
67, absolutely it turns. It must rotate with the engine to maintain the timing.
Dave Neptune |
#14
IP: 72.45.14.161
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I think he meant does this individual rotor turn, not all of them
As for the spark, it should be bright blue and jump at least half an inch. A yellowish 1/4" spark is not enough. |
#15
IP: 70.192.219.169
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Quote:
I removed the coil wire where it connects to the distributor and grounded it to the engine block. I got a blue-white spark when cranking the engine. |
#16
IP: 108.23.219.177
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Clear?
Ajax, my question was referring to the spark. Did it come from cranking or did you energize the coil and make it spark like just testing the coil.
Sorry for the confusion. So now when you crank the engine it throws a spark to the distributor but then nothing to the plugs~correct. That would have to be either cap, rotor or wires. Note, all four wires very doubtfull. If the rotor slipped or the shutter slipped on the shaft the spark may just be going right to the distributor body inside and not to the plug. If something slipped like that while running it would just shut down as I guess it did. Dave Neptune |
#17
IP: 134.223.116.152
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Oh yes, I only observed the spark from the coil while cranking.
I did not try inducing spark by moving the optical trigger around in the distributor. The fellow has replaced his cap, wires, and rotor. I'll pop the cap off and try to verify that the optical trigger is properly mounted. If all else fails, I'll transplant my distributor (points and condensor) into his engine for a test. If my distributor fires his engine, I'll advise him to replace his current Indigo EI system with something else. I don't really care with what, that's his decision. |
#18
IP: 174.21.248.251
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There is a couple of easy tests on the indigo to test it. But usually it's a go no-go situation. If it runs it's working. I do know that if you at all wire it with reversed polarity, it's toast.
This from my instructions:
If it doesn't fluctuate:
Hope that helps. Jack |
#19
IP: 71.80.170.75
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I have seen in the past several times where a rotor is shorted right thru the middle and sends the high voltage straight to the distributor shaft. usually a cheap after market rotor made of shiny black plastic. If you look at bottom of rotor where it slides in shaft you should see carbon track or even a hole burnt through.
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#20
IP: 99.90.4.95
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Be careful when applying testing instructions from one type of electronic ignition to another. The Indigo system uses a photo-optic trigger while others including Pertronix (Ignitor) and Hot Spark use a Hall Effect trigger (essentially magnetic but that's an oversimplification).
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#21
IP: 134.223.116.157
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Quote:
The only thing that hasn't been replaced is the EI system. I'm juggling a few things right now, but I hope to bring my dizzy out to his boat this week. |
#22
IP: 71.80.170.75
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new parts don't necessarily mean good parts
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#23
IP: 134.223.230.158
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Ok, the engine is running so here's the after-action report:
Ultimately, there were a couple of electrical issues at play, one of which lead to a lack of fuel. 1. The cap and rotor had bad carbon scoring that probably inhibited spark. Once these were replaced, there was excellent spark at the plugs. 2. I found that a PO has apparently, improperly tied all 12v power to a terminal on the starter. The nut on the lug was very loose, resulting in a lot of arcing and power cutting out all over the boat while the starter was cranking. 3. This engine is equipped with what looks like an old, Facet electric fuel pump. Power to the pump is tied to some kind of a terminal block or safety swtich mounted on the side of the engine. This terminal block is faulty. 12v comes in, but I saw 0 volts coming out, to the fuel pump. Once I bypassed this faulty piece, the fuel pump ran, and the engine finally started. Whatever this terminal block or safety switch is, it is NOT the "low oil pressure" cutoff switch. It is not tied to the oil pressure gauge or sensor in any way that I can find. I will post a picture of it later today, for you all to examine. The engine has adequate cooling water flow (RWC), seems to have plenty of power, good engine temperature, and good oil pressure. It seems to idle well enough when the fuel pump is running correctly... This winter, I'll help the NO (New Owner) mount a large (+) terminal in the engine compartment to get his entire 12v system off of the starter terminal. |
#24
IP: 71.165.5.29
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Oh Boy
[QUOTE=Ajax;74797]Oh yes, I only observed the spark from the coil while cranking.
The fellow has replaced his cap, wires, and rotor. I'll pop the cap off and try to verify that the optical trigger is properly mounted. Ajax, good to hear all is well! How did a "new cap" have so much carbon bridging? Dave Neptune |
#25
IP: 134.223.230.156
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No, I meant that the original cap and rotor had bad carbon scoring.
He kept them to show me. After our first go-around, he replaced cap, rotor, plugs and wires. He showed them to me last night, on our second bout with the engine. Any of these could have restored/improved spark at the plugs. I do want to thank everyone who educated me that if the coil is firing, the trigger in the distributor (and hence the EI system) is working fine. That stopped me from going in the wrong direction. I didn't even bother bringing my distributor to his boat. |
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