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  #1   IP: 96.244.122.58
Old 10-17-2013, 09:48 AM
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Electronic Ignition Troubleshooting

A friend just bought a Pearson 30. During the delivery home, the engine simply quit and never restarted.

I visited the boat, and discovered absolutely zero spark on any of the plugs.
This boat has been equipped with Indigo electronic ignition.

The diagnosis should be simple, I'm just looking for a sanity-check:

The coil has power.
The ignition module external to the distributor has power.
If you ground the coil wire to the engine block, the coil is producing spark. This means that the distributor is receiving spark from the coil.
No spark is being distributed to any of the 4 plugs.

My diagnosis is that the trigger module inside the distributor has failed.

Comments?
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  #2   IP: 173.79.39.190
Old 10-17-2013, 10:09 AM
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Agree that the EI is your most likely suspect. But two other possibilities are

- The rotor
- Carbon tracks inside the cap

Since these are cheap parts, and easy to test, I'd eliminate them first. Just repeat your spark test while cranking, but do the test at the wire coming off the coil instead of at the spark plugs.
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  #3   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 10-17-2013, 10:39 AM
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Talking See the light

Ajax, first check under the cap. The Indigo is a "photo optic trigger" so check to see that all is in place, IE the shutter and the "LIGHT", just to be sure they're in place.

Also on the later Indigo units there is really nice feature, a functionality light on the end of the "box" it is a red LED and will flash while cranking if it is getting a signal.

You can also position the shutter window over the light and have it so with the c-adv you can move the shutter back and forth through the light, no spark no good.


Dave Neptune
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  #4   IP: 134.223.116.201
Old 10-18-2013, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Ajax, first check under the cap. The Indigo is a "photo optic trigger" so check to see that all is in place, IE the shutter and the "LIGHT", just to be sure they're in place.

Also on the later Indigo units there is really nice feature, a functionality light on the end of the "box" it is a red LED and will flash while cranking if it is getting a signal.

You can also position the shutter window over the light and have it so with the c-adv you can move the shutter back and forth through the light, no spark no good.


Dave Neptune
Dave,

The owner has replaced the cap, rotor and plug wires with no effect.
He has the older Indigo EI kit. The module doesn't have the LEDs.

I called Indigo and they're saying that the optical trigger is working, because it's firing the coil. I'm not really sure I agree with this. I had the same system on an old Ford pickup truck and the trigger module in the distributor had failed in the exact same way.

We will check again to make sure that the trigger is properly mounted in the distributor.

I might get generous and offer to drop my own distributor into his engine for a test.
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  #5   IP: 108.23.219.177
Old 10-18-2013, 10:09 AM
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Hmmm?

Ajax, what did you say or Indigo say that leads them to say the trigger is working?

Did you try moving the shutter and get a pulse to the coil?

I've worked quite a bit with photo optic systems and have only replace a couple of "photo triggers".

The system is very simple the signal from the photo trigger goes to the box and the box is the switch (like the points) that sends the pulse to the coil.

Dave Neptune
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
The coil has power.
The ignition module external to the distributor has power.
If you ground the coil wire to the engine block, the coil is producing spark. This means that the distributor is receiving spark from the coil.
I don't think grounding the coil (secondary?) wire to the block is an effective test for system function. The coil needs to produce enough energy to jump the air gap on the spark plug, like a little bolt of lightning. The way it does that is it builds up a charge when the - terminal is grounded (points or EI closed, the + terminal is always energized during operation) then when the - is removed (points or EI open) the coil dumps the full charge, like 20,000 ~ 40,000 volts depending on the coil you have.
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Last edited by ndutton; 10-18-2013 at 11:00 AM.
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  #7   IP: 134.223.116.151
Old 10-18-2013, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Ajax, what did you say or Indigo say that leads them to say the trigger is working?

Did you try moving the shutter and get a pulse to the coil?

I've worked quite a bit with photo optic systems and have only replace a couple of "photo triggers".

The system is very simple the signal from the photo trigger goes to the box and the box is the switch (like the points) that sends the pulse to the coil.

Dave Neptune
I told them that the coil is sending spark to the distributor, but nothing is coming out of the distributor on any of the 4 spark plug leads. The engine died very abruptly.

No, I didn't move the shutter.

Ok, so it sounds like the EI system is functioning normally. After replacing the plugs, wires, cap and rotor, what would prevent spark from being sent to the plugs?

I'm going to try again to find spark on the plugs. Maybe I was just doing a poor job of grounding them.
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:20 PM
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With everything hooked up, take the coil wire out of the distributor and hold close to the block. Crank the engine. If it sparks, then the Indigo, coil, etc. are good and the issue lies downstream. If not, then the issue is upstream.
I had endless issues with my Indigo unit that broke down as follows:
1. Burned out coils. (this was in the dark days before we knew about ballast resistors)
2. The unit itself died once.
3. Burned out coil wires. Apparently the Indigo had a hot enough spark to degrade the wire from the coil to distributor. It was gradual - it slowly got worse and worse until the boat would not start.

Try a new coil wire. For a test pretty much any wire will do, but don't touch while it is running
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:55 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
Ok, so it sounds like the EI system is functioning normally. After replacing the plugs, wires, cap and rotor, what would prevent spark from being sent to the plugs?
The coil is firing when the rotor is between contacts inside the distributor cap.
Check the timing. The distributor may have slipped and rotated.
Not a very likely scenario but have a look anyway.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
...I'm going to try again to find spark on the plugs. Maybe I was just doing a poor job of grounding them.
Try something like this with a spare plug. It can become a permanant spark tester.
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  #11   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 10-18-2013, 03:21 PM
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Question Clarity

Ajax, when you crank the engine do you get spark from the coil? Or just if you work the wires on the coil?

Dave Neptune
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  #12   IP: 166.147.88.43
Old 10-18-2013, 03:51 PM
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I apologize in advance if this is ill-received, but I've been taught to assume nothing...

When cranking, does the rotor turn?
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  #13   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 10-18-2013, 04:06 PM
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Exclamation You bet it does

67, absolutely it turns. It must rotate with the engine to maintain the timing.

Dave Neptune
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:18 PM
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I think he meant does this individual rotor turn, not all of them

As for the spark, it should be bright blue and jump at least half an inch. A yellowish 1/4" spark is not enough.
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  #15   IP: 70.192.219.169
Old 10-19-2013, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Ajax, when you crank the engine do you get spark from the coil? Or just if you work the wires on the coil?

Dave Neptune
I don't understand the second half of your question.

I removed the coil wire where it connects to the distributor and grounded it to the engine block. I got a blue-white spark when cranking the engine.
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Old 10-20-2013, 11:23 AM
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Lightbulb Clear?

Ajax, my question was referring to the spark. Did it come from cranking or did you energize the coil and make it spark like just testing the coil.

Sorry for the confusion.

So now when you crank the engine it throws a spark to the distributor but then nothing to the plugs~correct. That would have to be either cap, rotor or wires. Note, all four wires very doubtfull.

If the rotor slipped or the shutter slipped on the shaft the spark may just be going right to the distributor body inside and not to the plug. If something slipped like that while running it would just shut down as I guess it did.

Dave Neptune
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  #17   IP: 134.223.116.152
Old 10-21-2013, 07:44 AM
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Oh yes, I only observed the spark from the coil while cranking.
I did not try inducing spark by moving the optical trigger around in the distributor.

The fellow has replaced his cap, wires, and rotor.

I'll pop the cap off and try to verify that the optical trigger is properly mounted.

If all else fails, I'll transplant my distributor (points and condensor) into his engine for a test. If my distributor fires his engine, I'll advise him to replace his current Indigo EI system with something else. I don't really care with what, that's his decision.
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:16 PM
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There is a couple of easy tests on the indigo to test it. But usually it's a go no-go situation. If it runs it's working. I do know that if you at all wire it with reversed polarity, it's toast.

This from my instructions:
  1. Connect the + lead of the vm to the neg side of the coil. Connect the - lead to ground, set vm to >15v.
  2. Ground center wire from coil
  3. Crank engine
  4. The VM should fluctuate a range of 1-2v to 10-12v

If it doesn't fluctuate:
  • If vm shows constant 0 there's an open ignition curcuit
  • If the vm shows constant volt of 1-3.5v the power transistor is shorted
  • If is shows a contsant v equal to battery v then the Ignitor has a short or Hall cell isn't working

Hope that helps.

Jack
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Old 10-21-2013, 09:42 PM
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I have seen in the past several times where a rotor is shorted right thru the middle and sends the high voltage straight to the distributor shaft. usually a cheap after market rotor made of shiny black plastic. If you look at bottom of rotor where it slides in shaft you should see carbon track or even a hole burnt through.
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:45 AM
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Be careful when applying testing instructions from one type of electronic ignition to another. The Indigo system uses a photo-optic trigger while others including Pertronix (Ignitor) and Hot Spark use a Hall Effect trigger (essentially magnetic but that's an oversimplification).
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMark View Post
I have seen in the past several times where a rotor is shorted right thru the middle and sends the high voltage straight to the distributor shaft. usually a cheap after market rotor made of shiny black plastic. If you look at bottom of rotor where it slides in shaft you should see carbon track or even a hole burnt through.
This would make sense to me as well, except that the owner has replaced the cap, rotor and wires.

The only thing that hasn't been replaced is the EI system.
I'm juggling a few things right now, but I hope to bring my dizzy out to his boat this week.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:46 AM
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new parts don't necessarily mean good parts
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  #23   IP: 134.223.230.158
Old 10-25-2013, 07:51 AM
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Ok, the engine is running so here's the after-action report:

Ultimately, there were a couple of electrical issues at play, one of which lead to a lack of fuel.

1. The cap and rotor had bad carbon scoring that probably inhibited spark. Once these were replaced, there was excellent spark at the plugs.

2. I found that a PO has apparently, improperly tied all 12v power to a terminal on the starter. The nut on the lug was very loose, resulting in a lot of arcing and power cutting out all over the boat while the starter was cranking.

3. This engine is equipped with what looks like an old, Facet electric fuel pump. Power to the pump is tied to some kind of a terminal block or safety swtich mounted on the side of the engine. This terminal block is faulty. 12v comes in, but I saw 0 volts coming out, to the fuel pump. Once I bypassed this faulty piece, the fuel pump ran, and the engine finally started.

Whatever this terminal block or safety switch is, it is NOT the "low oil pressure" cutoff switch. It is not tied to the oil pressure gauge or sensor in any way that I can find. I will post a picture of it later today, for you all to examine.

The engine has adequate cooling water flow (RWC), seems to have plenty of power, good engine temperature, and good oil pressure. It seems to idle well enough when the fuel pump is running correctly...

This winter, I'll help the NO (New Owner) mount a large (+) terminal in the engine compartment to get his entire 12v system off of the starter terminal.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:05 AM
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Exclamation Oh Boy

[QUOTE=Ajax;74797]Oh yes, I only observed the spark from the coil while cranking.


The fellow has replaced his cap, wires, and rotor.

I'll pop the cap off and try to verify that the optical trigger is properly mounted.

Ajax, good to hear all is well! How did a "new cap" have so much carbon bridging?

Dave Neptune
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  #25   IP: 134.223.230.156
Old 10-25-2013, 11:25 AM
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No, I meant that the original cap and rotor had bad carbon scoring.
He kept them to show me.

After our first go-around, he replaced cap, rotor, plugs and wires.
He showed them to me last night, on our second bout with the engine.
Any of these could have restored/improved spark at the plugs.

I do want to thank everyone who educated me that if the coil is firing, the trigger in the distributor (and hence the EI system) is working fine. That stopped me from going in the wrong direction. I didn't even bother bringing my distributor to his boat.
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