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  #26   IP: 68.104.86.117
Old 08-02-2010, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Jerry - Your low voltage loss between alternator and battery is most impressive. Can you tell us what sizes you use for the wire coming off the alternator (+ and -). Also what is your minimum size back to the battery? Thanks, Hanley
Doing this from memory...
8AWG from the Alt to the Starter post.
8AWG from the Starter to the Isolator Switch.
4AWG from the Isolator to the Batteries

Short runs all of them.

EDIT: I looked at the wiring and the Starter to Isolator/Battery Bank is actually a 4AWG wire. (Not 8AWG)
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Last edited by roadnsky; 08-06-2010 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Looked at the wiring and it's different than I originally posted
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Old 08-02-2010, 10:15 PM
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Voltage drop is a function of wire cross sectional area (in terms of resistance per unit length), wire length and current.

As the current increases, so does the voltage drop. Without excessive length, as long as the current doesn't exceed the wire gauge's rated ampacity the voltage drop is usually insignificant. Beyond the rated ampacity however, things start to get serious.

Depending on where Jerry's regulator senses battery voltage, the regulator may make up the difference.

The 8 gauge wire from the starter to the isloator switch caught my attention, not so much for charging but for starting. I've never measured it but does anyone know the normal amperage the starter draws? My former Perkins diesel starter could draw some serious amps, like in the neighborhood of 200 - 250 as I recall, maybe more. My battery cables were 4/0 just to address the starting loads.

Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting the A4 starter is anywhere near the Perkins in terms of starting loads.
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Old 08-02-2010, 10:17 PM
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you guys don't want to know what I am running (it was the biggest piece of wire I had on the boat when I eliminated the ammeter run to the cockpit in the middle of cruising.)

I think mine is 10 or 12 gauge..the run is short now though, about 24" from alternator to isolator, and then 4 awg from isolator to batteries..probably 12" & 16" runs respectively.

This setup is not permanent...it is only the beginning. I still have a random 14 gauge wire running thru the bilge that must be connected to ground on the house battery to make any of my 12 v systems work. I am guessing the "real" ground failed long ago.
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Last edited by sastanley; 08-02-2010 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
The 8 gauge wire from the starter to the isloator switch caught my attention, not so much for charging but for starting. I've never measured it but does anyone know the normal amperage the starter draws? My former Perkins diesel starter could draw some serious amps, like in the neighborhood of 200 - 250 as I recall, maybe more. My battery cables were 4/0 just to address the starting loads. Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting the A4 starter is anywhere near the Perkins in terms of starting loads.
Not being an expert, I went through this decision-point for months before I settled on 4 AWG for start battery to starter (same as original on the boat for 34 years it seems), and 8 AWG for alternator output to starter solenoid B post (a foot; much shorter and larger than the old original #10 wire that had run from the alternator all the way aft to an ammeter in the cockpit ignition panel and ran both engine and house loads with #10 wires running forward again -- I scrapped those long runs in my refit). After digging up what I could, I got the impression that A4 starter draws are considerably less than 200A, perhaps less than 150A and normally maybe in the 135A range -- very easy to start. The concern is too small and overheating the wire, but I got the impression that too large can also be problematic for starter wires. Over normal short duration starter use (seconds), I thought that cable size could handle the draw in our situation, but of course a wrench left across the terminals for a prolonged period would be a different matter...
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Last edited by rigspelt; 08-03-2010 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigspelt View Post
Not being an expert, I went through this decision-point for months before I settled on 4 AWG for start battery to starter (same as original on the boat for 34 years it seems), and 8 AWG for alternator output to starter solenoid B post
Agreed. It seems the common wire size for our battery to starter circuit is #4. Jerry has some #8 wire in there that caught my attention. Regarding the alternator output wire, the standard alternator output is 35A max. and the common upgrade is 55A. #8 wire is capable of handling these maximums for prolonged periods and who ever sees their alternator operate at the max output anyway?

There are a few who have installed an alternator with a maximum capacity that seems beyond reason, yours truly being one of them. Replacement of the alternator output wire to a larger gauge is necessary in these upgrades. My original output wire for the Motorola 35A was #10. With my Delco 100A alternator the output wire is now #4.
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-03-2010 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
There are a few who have installed an alternator with a maximum capacity that seems beyond reason, yours truly being one of them.
Just to clarify, we run the 55 amp API, which I am hoping I can somehow adapt to run with an adjustable external regulator.
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  #32   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 08-03-2010, 08:03 AM
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Sorry, worded my post awkwardly. 'Yours truly' meant me, not that your alternator was truly unreasonable. I had no idea what size your alternator was.

I'm the nut with the 100 amp alternator.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post

I'm the nut with the 100 amp alternator.
Mmmm.... cold beer! - Neil, are you really up and thinking about this stuff at 5:00 AM local time? You and rigs are freaks of nature!

I will comment that the output wire on my 35A alternator is the same gauge as the orange wire that was originally in the charge circuit on the C-30, which as you well know, runs from the engine compartment to the ammeter in the cockpit and back, probably originally to the starter post. Once the isolator was added (who knows when?), the PO ran a (looks like 10 gauge also) from the ammeter directly to the isolator (+) post, which is back in the engine compartment, so the run was still just as long. I decided to eliminate the long 10# wire (& ammeter) for now, figuring that even though not ideal, the 10# run from the alternator directly to the isolator (+) post couldn't be any worse than the same gauge wire running all the way to the ammeter and back, as it had for xx years. Incidentally, the black wire running to ground and the (+) from the ammeter were exactly the same color and gauge & ran next to each other in the bilge. Getting anything to work on this boat & tracing P.O. nonsense while I contemplate the re-wire has been a challenge!
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
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Last edited by sastanley; 08-03-2010 at 08:37 AM. Reason: do you people ever sleep?
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  #34   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 08-03-2010, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Mmmm.... cold beer!
That's right, ice cold beer, brain freeze cold.

For the record, members of dis here forum who visit are entitled to my private stash of imports. We'll leave the domestic swill for the common riff raff. My current preference is Pacifico Clara.

Actually, when visiting others and asked what my favorite beer is I reply with my 2 favorites: cold and free.
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Old 08-03-2010, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
I have thought of upgrading my charging from stock and just found a Motorola 55amp. alternator under a pile of dune buggy parts.
Dave,

Any alternator you use should be ignition protected. It's my understanding that automotive alternators are not. The attached pic of my 100A Delco shows the spark arresting screen.
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-03-2010 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:08 AM
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Talking

Neil - Regarding your question about starter draw (post#27), mine shows 130amps using #2 cable. Also for the record I use #4 cable for alternator output, both positive and negative (110 amp Balmar model 712). I am relieved to learn of your splendid policy regarding beer discrimination.
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:38 AM
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Bud Select 55 is currently $9.99 for an 18-pack here locally. That is only $1 more than the wretched Natural Light & Busch Light which I cannot drink.

I get my fill of imports when I go to the local mexican restaurant and drink the Dos Equis Negro (sp?) on tap in the 34 oz. mug!
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:45 AM
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Some comments:
Trying to charge batteries with a fixed voltage regulator is like trying to fill water balloons with a fixed water pressure. If you open the valve too far they will pop and if you open it only enough to not pop them they will take forever to fill.

That said, my experience with adapting modern regulators to the 55 amp Motorola is that the alternator gets driven way harder than it would be by the internal regulator and needs a diode or two replaced every 2 or 3 years. I think I need one now - the max charging current seems to have dropped a bit
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:51 AM
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Shawn,

One of the great finds when building my Westsail in the 80's was cases of Meister Brau at the local Smart & Final for 12 bucks. There was a $10 rebate coupon inside, net cost was $2 for a case not counting recycle value of the aluminum cans.

Man, are we off topic or what??
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-05-2010 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:09 AM
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Is this the alternator you have?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-1...Q5fAccessories

Did it fit the A4 mounts?
Are you still using the internal regulator it came with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Dave,

Any alternator you use should be ignition protected. It's my understanding that automotive alternators are not. The attached pic of my 100A Delco shows the spark arresting screen.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:15 AM
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Thumbs up Alternator?

Niel, thanx for the heads up on the protection. Isn't the protection in the regulator that is chosen? I don't see any of the "spark" protection on the stock unit(?) and wonder what's up with it?

Ah swilling Beer I have a deffinate preferance but when offered a beer all I require is "wet and cold". Not to fussy unless the GUD stuff is available.
Save the "Ales"!

Dave Neptune
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Is this the alternator you have?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-1...Q5fAccessories

Did it fit the A4 mounts?
Are you still using the internal regulator it came with?
Yeah, that looks like the one. I had to modify the mount slightly by grinding off the corner below the pivot bolt to allow sufficient belt adjustment. When planning the installation I really struggled with the single wire concept but finally relented and installed it as designed, works great.

To answer your question directly, mine is internally regulated, single wire connection (output to starter post). Be careful with the connection at the output post, the spark shield is really close there and grounded.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Neil, are you really up and thinking about this stuff at 5:00 AM local time? You and rigs are freaks of nature!
Heh-heh - good company to be included within!
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigspelt View Post
Heh-heh - good company to be included within!
Yeah, often it's just me and rigs at that hour, sometimes Kelly - from France!

Quote:
Neil, thanx for the heads up on the protection. Isn't the protection in the regulator that is chosen? I don't see any of the "spark" protection on the stock unit(?) and wonder what's up with it?
Dave,
This pdf explains it better than I ever could. Note that the alternators available from Moyer are all SAE J-1171 compliant.
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File Type: pdf 74ECF6CCd01.pdf (193.5 KB, 640 views)
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-03-2010 at 11:38 PM. Reason: Repaired dead pdf link
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
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Yeah, often it's just me and rigs at that hour, sometimes Kelly - from France!
Yeah...
but is it because you guys are up early OR just still up LATE?!
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Old 08-03-2010, 11:53 AM
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Question did we ever answer Art's question?

Art,
Sorry we've gotten so off topic..did you get an answer to your initial inquiry?

I was snapping some pics yesterday and remembered I had a pic from 2009 of my Motorola alternator before I put on the aftermarket regulator.

the pigtail (yellow) is the exciter and heads off to the (+) on the coil.

the large black is alt. output to the charging circuit. Mine heads off to an isolator, but a common wiring set up is back to the starter as well.
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"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
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Old 08-03-2010, 12:16 PM
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Thanks Shawn for the information.

I managed to locate in previously, but your picture is great.

Thanks

Art
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:17 PM
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Thumbs up Alterantor

Niel, thanx for the pdf!

Where do you keep your boat? Do you ever get to Catalina?

Thanx Dave Neptune
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:09 PM
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Dave,
I love it over at Catalina, particularly Isthmus Cove but alas, demands of work and family make those weekends all too rare. Hope to get over there later this month and I'll give you a holler before I do, would love to connect w/ you over there.

My slip is in Cabrillo, a little toward the outer harbor from 22nd Street Landing and in front of the Doubletree Hotel. That's 19.3 NM from the Isthmus!

For all youse non-West Coasties, I'm sure Dave will agree there's nothing like BBQ'n steaks in the cockpit as the sun sets behind the island after a 4 hour passage.

edit: OK, moved this business over to the Local Knowledge topic
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:50 AM
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Smile West End

Niel, I was actually the second boat in the new Cabrillo Marina when it opened and was there just over two months rent free, but that's another story.
I have a mooring in Emerald Bay and am a member of the Corsair YC, actually this year I'm the Commodore. I have four more trips planned for this season with the club. I will be in the Istmus next wednesday to drink some free booze at the Reef, the SCICo is buying for the Corsairs to celebrate our new lease. Then I'll be in Emerald for the next week. Hope I don't miss Shawn's reports on the "Indigo" thread that starts out blaming me~~ouch.
Thanx for the info you provide. It is amazing how much "other" knowledge is gleened from this site and our precious lil beasties the A-4.
I might see/meet Hatch this weekend as the SS boat he is crewing will be racing just up the channel from my slip in Alimitos Bay~cool.

See ya soon maybe.
Dave Neptune
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