Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Electrical

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 174.217.217.182
Old 07-31-2010, 05:23 PM
contagous contagous is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 18
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post Inverter issue (maybe alternator based)

Hi guys

I have a Cal 28' 1966 "The Pelican" sailboat moored in Seattle WA. I have been a live aboard for around a year now. (cheap rent) in Seattle anyways lol

I'm not a engine head at all, and not great with electric, computers are my specialized field so bare with me on the explanation please. I'll do my best

OK here goes:


I have been running a SPT Refrigerator on the Dock whilst being powered by the on shore power.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sunpentown...erator/5982314


I am using the boat more frequently this year, so I went out and purchased a 1000W (2500W peak) Inverter so my fridge can be used out on the water.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...classNum=11284

Whilst i'm plugged into the shore power, if I connect the fridge to my inverter and power it on, it starts no problems at all...

If i'm not connected to shore power and engine is running, when I plug in the inverter, the inverter beeps tell tell me (low volts) and will not power the fridge...

So I checked my on-board Volt meter, and when i'm connected to shore power it reads at around 13.6 (analogue sorry) volts.

When i'm not connected to shore power and just running on engine at around 1000 rpm my volt meter is showing around 12 volts...


When I spoke to the inverter manufacturer tech, he said that the inverter needed max volts to start heavy things like the fridge, and the beep was a low volt warning, and thats why it was not starting...



A little about my setup:

I have a 12 volt starter battery, and 2 6volt deep cycle golf cart battery's in serial for the house batteries, on a 1, 2, 1+2, off switch. And then I have a Dual battery charger pro from guest to charge those batteries from shore power.

http://www.marinco.com/product/10-am...rgepro-charger

And my engine alternator to charge whilst running...



OK so my questions and queries:

How to I get my volts up when only running the engine so my inverter will power my fridge?

I've read about people having lots of batteries and such, if this needed?

Is my alternator working properly? How can I check?

I heard about people having different size alternators, How can I check what size mine is?

How much give should be in the Alternators belt?, mine seems tight but can push it in a little bit... I heard about these:

http://www.atomic4.com/ADJ.htm

Maybe I could use one to tighten mine, but it looks like my Alternator is on upside down or something lol, sorry i'm know absolutely nothing about engines...

Anyways, that should do for now, Any Input and suggestions would be great, and thank you for any help or info provided. If you need more info just ask.

Thanks


Dave
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 76.201.170.204
Old 07-31-2010, 10:09 PM
rpowers's Avatar
rpowers rpowers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 246
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
You Need A Bigger Inverter

Hello,

I have found that inverters wattage ratings are always listed as more than actually useful.

In other words, you need a bigger inverter than you think.

Also, you need at least a couple of 12V batteries to power something with the energy (watt) draw of a refrigerator.

Examples:

1) I have a small 700 watt inverter, and it is good for recharging my laptop computer and cell phone, but I won't run my 700 watt coffee maker.

2) I have a 1500 watt inverter that will run my 700 watt coffee maker, but only if I attach two 12V batteries in parallel.

3) I have a 1300 watt space heater that cannot be run by the 1500 watt inverter.

To run a fridge (how many watts?) you'll certainly need more than a 1000 watt inverter. Probably two batteries connected in parallel also.

I just went through this exercise myself (thank gosh for Amazon.com's return policy...).

Also, inverters are much cheaper on Amazon.com than at West Marine (as is most everything...)

Best advice of all: Save all big energy appliances for shore power.

Last edited by rpowers; 07-31-2010 at 10:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 24.97.156.75
Old 07-31-2010, 10:26 PM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,439
Thanks: 46
Thanked 259 Times in 170 Posts
That's a nice fridge and if you have reliable shorepower it makes a lot more sense than the 12V systems that are widely installed in sailboats' coolers (including mine). The 12V systems use quite a lot of power and are not all that practical to use on a boat without either a LOT of battery capacity or a LOT of engine running time.

But I would guess that you do not have enough battery capacity to run a 110V refrigerator and freezer through an inverter for very long at all--maybe not even overnight. A freezer is a big electrical commitment, and 110V reefers, especially small ones, are not very efficient.

That said, things with compressors take several times their running amperage to get started. Your inverter may not be up to providing that much juice and neither may your batteries.

If you're getting 12V out of your battery when the alternator is running and the batteries just came off the shore power charger and with no other load on the batteries, your alternator may not be putting out what it's supposed to. What happens when you're running at 1500 RPM? You should be getting about 12.6V out of the stock A4 alternator, which is still low by today's alternator standards. Also, when you're running the engine and you turn on the inverter with a big load on it like your fridge, you should hear the engine slow down as the alternator starts bearing a load. If that isn't happening your alternator isn't working.

With 12V showing with the alternator running, it is also possible that your batteries are weakened. It's quite common for a shore power charger that's on all the time to weaken batteries to the point that they can't last much longer than a daysail without getting totally drained.
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 70.197.170.23
Old 07-31-2010, 11:03 PM
contagous contagous is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 18
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
rpowers:

My fridge is only 150W, and i've been told it takes about 4x that to start so 600w, my inverter is 1000W with 2500W peak rate.


tenders:

I am only trying to run the fridge/freezer when engine is on, so when i'm out and about My food doesn't defrost etc... and then if i Sail, I would switch to house batteries only so my starter motor battery wouldn't get low...

On shore I will rely on the shore power, which is most of the year, but for the times I got out, like tripping to Canada soon, I would like to be able to have it working form the Engine power.

Haven't been able to get the fridge powered up via the inverter unless plugged into shore line, the inverter beep with low volts and shuts off, so Haven't noticed a drop in the engine rpm or anything as of yet.

i was wondering about the batteries, I am getting a Hydrometer soon to test them, and when I have my Multimeter I'll check that too.

Thanks guys for the help its really appreciated/.
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 07-31-2010, 11:46 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
A 12 volt output at 1000rpm is way below acceptable. With no load you should be getting between 13.0-13.4 volts. Sounds like you need to upgrade both alternator and battery size.
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 174.217.234.202
Old 08-01-2010, 12:05 AM
contagous contagous is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 18
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
A 12 volt output at 1000rpm is way below acceptable. With no load you should be getting between 13.0-13.4 volts. Sounds like you need to upgrade both alternator and battery size.
o.o really? people keep telling me the battery setup is ok, But I am checking to see if they are dying on Monday (i think) with a Hydrometer and such.

I noticed my alternator belt was a little loose, maybe 1/2 inch give on it, so trying to tighten it by rotating my Alternator up a little, but at the moment, the Nut wont budge... Also heard of those tighteners:

http://www.atomic4.com/ADJ.htm

but my alternator looks a little different to this, so have to see.

Thanks very much for you input, I will test batteries and post results soon, and also test the voltage o the actually alternator and not my on board volt meter.

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-01-2010, 12:33 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
The best way to test a battery is with a load tester. It is possible for a battery to test with acceptable voltage and still not be able to deliver its rated amperage to the load. Your voltage meter may not be up to the job of monitoring a system with a load like an inverter like yours. Check it with a digital. If your alternator is the stock 35 amp, it will have a hard time keeping up with the load you have.
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 174.217.234.202
Old 08-01-2010, 12:43 AM
contagous contagous is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 18
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
The best way to test a battery is with a load tester. It is possible for a battery to test with acceptable voltage and still not be able to deliver its rated amperage to the load. Your voltage meter may not be up to the job of monitoring a system with a load like an inverter like yours. Check it with a digital. If your alternator is the stock 35 amp, it will have a hard time keeping up with the load you have.
Thanks for the info i will testing all this on Monday hopefully, i will post results afterwards.. how can I tell what Amp my alternator is? I don't know if its the stock one or not...
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-01-2010, 12:47 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
If you post a picture or two of the alternator we should be able to identify it.
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 174.217.234.202
Old 08-01-2010, 01:19 AM
contagous contagous is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 18
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
If you post a picture or two of the alternator we should be able to identify it.
OK I'll see what I can do about that Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 64.203.32.52
Old 08-01-2010, 12:03 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Lightbulb Basics?

contagous, I am far from an electricle guru, so I deffer to many on this site for there tutilage. However I am well versed in the basics and there is one thing I have not seen is these posts and that is the connections, especially the grounds and the battery cables themselves. If they are old enough there can sometimes be corrosion inside the insulation that may not allow all of the power to get through.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 71.181.37.53
Old 08-01-2010, 12:14 PM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,177
Thanks: 221
Thanked 65 Times in 50 Posts
The primary issue here is Battery capacity and alternator capacity as stated
above. You can never get the proper battery voltage out to run your
inverter otherwise.

As a aside, why not have gone with a dc powered refrigerator to begin with
and thus eliminate the need for the inverter and the resulting losses due
to efficiency, heat, etc. ? Dometic sells a number of these units as well
as supplemental power supplies so that you can power them directly
from shore power later.

You must also upgrade your wire size when added a high powered alternator,
such as a 100 amp unit. The old fashioned analog ammeter that used to
run the positive lead to the cockpit will both be too small and too long with
bad connections. Replace the ammeter with a shunt based digital unit such
as sold by Blue seas. a volt meter from the same company as also helpful
to be able to see both amps delivered and percent charge.

Tom Stevens of Indigo Electronics has worked out a system , including
a smart 3 stage regulator which insures that the batteries are kept up to
snuff.

Good Luck

Art
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-01-2010, 12:32 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
These are the digital gauges Art is refering to. I no longer recommend multistage regulators.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 70.197.51.179
Old 08-01-2010, 03:26 PM
contagous contagous is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 18
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
contagous, I am far from an electricle guru, so I deffer to many on this site for there tutilage. However I am well versed in the basics and there is one thing I have not seen is these posts and that is the connections, especially the grounds and the battery cables themselves. If they are old enough there can sometimes be corrosion inside the insulation that may not allow all of the power to get through.

Dave Neptune
The wiring is all good as was only rewired just under a year ago... forgot to mention that, was all done by a qualified Electrician from Lunde Electronics here in Ballard. (12 volt system) So contacts look clean.



ArtJ:

Probably would of been smart, but when My old fridge died, just needed a replacement asap, I'm not a rich man, so I found something that worked, didn't really think about what I would do when not ashore, it was winter and my old one just died... I'm a live aboard so kinda forgot about the rest lol...

I will be testing my Alternator soon, and will post the results I get.

hanley:

This is about as good as photos I can get i'm afraid, its hard to get in there, and its taken with my Cellphone, Don't have camera (it died).






I know they not great and sorry for that.


Thanks for all the help guys

Dave
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 72.68.225.93
Old 08-02-2010, 12:00 AM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,439
Thanks: 46
Thanked 259 Times in 170 Posts
I'm pretty sure that's a simple stock 35 amp Motorola alternator.

I disagree that a 12V refrigeration system is better for liveaboards. Use your inverter and all its inefficiencies the 2% of the time you're underway. Use the direct AC for the 98% of the rest of the time rather than converting the AC to DC as you would with the DC reefer.

I agree you should clean off and reseat as many of the electrical contacts that you can. Then see what kind of voltage your batteries are putting out with a moderate load placed on them (ie, your engine blowers). Then take the alternator to a shop and see if it's putting out what it should. If not, it will cost less than $150 to rebuild. Or, replace it with a larger one.

In my opinion the information one gleans from an ammeter is not worth the substantial wiring necessary to mount the ammeter in a useful spot. A voltmeter, though, it worth its weight in gold. I have three: an analog one in the control panel, a 0-100% scale voltage meter by the electrical panel, and a digital one above the instruments.
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 97.161.239.123
Old 08-02-2010, 12:52 AM
contagous contagous is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 18
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenders View Post
I'm pretty sure that's a simple stock 35 amp Motorola alternator.

I disagree that a 12V refrigeration system is better for liveaboards. Use your inverter and all its inefficiencies the 2% of the time you're underway. Use the direct AC for the 98% of the rest of the time rather than converting the AC to DC as you would with the DC reefer.

I agree you should clean off and reseat as many of the electrical contacts that you can. Then see what kind of voltage your batteries are putting out with a moderate load placed on them (ie, your engine blowers). Then take the alternator to a shop and see if it's putting out what it should. If not, it will cost less than $150 to rebuild. Or, replace it with a larger one.

In my opinion the information one gleans from an ammeter is not worth the substantial wiring necessary to mount the ammeter in a useful spot. A voltmeter, though, it worth its weight in gold. I have three: an analog one in the control panel, a 0-100% scale voltage meter by the electrical panel, and a digital one above the instruments.
Thanks for your input, I will be running tests on the Alternator and Batteries Monday/Tuesday ish, Will post result and then shall see what needs to be done.

Thank you, I agree, I'm at dock most time, so shore power for fridge is used, and i'm just looking for something to power it when im out and about, which is only 10% of the time probably.
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 144.160.226.53
Old 08-02-2010, 07:01 AM
rheaton rheaton is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rockaway, NJ
Posts: 134
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Check into buying the MMI book. It will give you some great information.
Also, Check the book, and around this site regarding the alternator belt adjustment. I believe it is suppose to have 1/2 inch play in center. Too tight and you can burn out your alternator berrings.
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 71.181.37.53
Old 08-02-2010, 07:11 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,177
Thanks: 221
Thanked 65 Times in 50 Posts
Two things are for sure:

Whether using ac or dc
First you must upgrade your batteries and alternator

second you must upgrade the wiring to probably 4 gauge and eliminate or
replace the existing ammeter and its wiring otherwise the wiring will burn up
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-02-2010, 08:10 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
It would be a big mistake to think you can get away with not having an ammeter. The electrical requirements of modern sailboat systems demand knowledgable and accurate monitoring of components. The voltmeter is only half of the answer. See the two side by side on my post #13.
Reply With Quote
  #20   IP: 142.68.244.238
Old 08-02-2010, 08:24 AM
rigspelt's Avatar
rigspelt rigspelt is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,187
Thanks: 0
Thanked 19 Times in 17 Posts
Hanley, where is best bang for mounting an ammeter shunt an 20s-foot sailboat with separated engine and house circuits?

I put ours in the house battery ground wire (Blue Sea digital) when I replaced the ignition panel ammeter with a voltmeter. My thinking is that routinely I would rather know house amps than engine amps. I can always check the amps in the engine's circuits with a handheld "clamp" field sensing ammeter.

With the installed shunt on the house side, I can check charging output for either alternator or shore power by watching how they charge the house battery. The Blue Sea panel also displays voltages for either battery. I could always mount another shunt in the engine start battery, but so far haven't felt the need to add more wires and weight to the boat.
__________________
1974 C&C 27
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-02-2010, 01:28 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
I don't see any problem with your installation; however, the instructions from Blue Seas say to put the shunt at the very end of the negative line back to the batteries with a circuit breaker just before the line divides and returns to the negative sides of the batteries. I have only one main circuit in that all my batteries feed into the main buss bar. In this way I can put any or all on line as desired. The ammeter thus measures activity at the buss bar and I must isolate one battery on line in order to monitor each one's condition. Of course one could put in a selector switch to check the numbers anywhere in the system and that is exactly what is done in the case of the Professional Mariner DCM4 which I used to use. The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that once you start getting into big loads like inverters you need good information to keep the system healthy. BTW there is something to be said for checking batteries off line if you wait long enough for the voltage to settle.
Reply With Quote
  #22   IP: 174.216.126.161
Old 08-04-2010, 07:37 PM
contagous contagous is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 18
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
*update*

So after testing my batteries with a Hydrometer, I noticed that both my House batteries (6volt serial) was nearly empty...

And it looks like everything has been running from my 1 starting battery (12Volt).

I have topped up my 6 volt batteries and recycled the electrolytes, and they are now on a 24 hour charge...

Will re test them and post results soon.

Didn't get round to testing the alternator as of yet as thought i'd deal with this issue first.

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 72.68.225.93
Old 08-04-2010, 11:42 PM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,439
Thanks: 46
Thanked 259 Times in 170 Posts
I think you've found the problem. If the batteries have been nearly dry I wouldn't expect them to come back to any semblance of usability.

In looking over your earlier posts I would caution that even though it's a pittance by household energy standards, 150 watts is a lot of juice to be pulling out of your batteries. That's more than 12 amps and, when one considers inefficiencies from charging and inverter conversion, is probably most of what your alternator is capable of putting out at normal RPMs. Demands like that or more are fine for brief uses like power tools and microwaves, but pulling that much assuming the reefer compressor is running 50% of the time will spell the end of your batteries.

I think my 12V Adler Barbour icebox converter unit pulls 4 amps/~50 watts.
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-05-2010, 09:21 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
With the loads in question I would recommend going to a Balmar alternator of the "6" or "7" series. If you intend to keep your alternator in the standard position, buy one in the 70 or 80 amp range. You cannot get nor do you require any more amperage. The 35 amp stock alternator is inadequate for use with an inverter like the one you have.
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 08-06-2010, 01:04 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Thumbs up

After using different shore battery chargers for many years I think I finally found "the one". Check out the DLS series at www.iotaengineering.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Spring Low Power Issue... J.MILES Pearson 3 03-20-2012 11:11 AM
Just Another Power Loss Issue Bruce A Troubleshooting 33 06-16-2010 02:21 PM
Low RPMs - Carb Issue? Kurt Troubleshooting 4 07-02-2008 04:54 PM
Engine Rattling/Loss of RPM issue jkenan Troubleshooting 5 11-25-2005 04:01 PM
Engine Starting Issue jkenan Troubleshooting 0 08-19-2005 11:17 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved