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  #51   IP: 99.233.122.71
Old 10-30-2013, 12:13 AM
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Thanks Shawn and Mo

No hard starts I recall. I did redo exhaust in spring with anti-siphon pretty high above waterline. I don't have prior water pump but gee, new MMI pump has less than 10 hrs on it. Plugs are clean. Runs fine after warm up. Oil level was just a touch high on dip stick

So tomorrow I head to boat yard with bike pump in hand to do pressure test

More later. Thanks.
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Old 10-31-2013, 01:12 AM
Sheermadness Sheermadness is offline
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Question Grey sludge

Hi all, this is my first post! I am particularly interested in this issue as well.
I bought my engine used from a scrapper in Wilmington ca, I heard the engine run and all seemed fine, I was transporting the engine to the Bay Area to install in my ericson 29, the guy said he had to drain the oil before loading it into my SUV in case a tip over would spill the oil out the flywheel, so he opens it up and this nasty grey sludge comes out, when I remarked on that, he said not to worry he'd pressure washed the hell out of the engine some water must have gotten in....... Ok so I'm much wiser now. I think.
After my install, and some fresh oil, the engine ran well enough for perhaps 3 hours, eventually it bogged down and quit, refusing any coaxing to start. And this grey ooze in an unstoppable flow started filling my bilge.......eventually I got around to tackling that mess, and I pulled the engine, it's now in my garage.
I pulled the head , and it showed signs of a failed gasket between 3 and 4, had it mangafluxed, pressure tested, and skimmed 5 thousandths, it tested fine on all accounts! I had to replace some studs but got it retorqued, with a new gasket without any issues I did have a slightly stuck valve on number 4 but it snapped back into position with just a little persuasion.
Compression is 80 on number 1 and 2, and 79 on 3 and 4.
I took apart the carb and rebuilt it, took off the engine plate on the alternator side and cleaned out the cooling galleries, and pressure tested the water system, water pump by itself, ok. Engine to the thermostat outlet, ok. Exhaust manifold, ok.
And then the entire system all connected, using an air hose and pressure gauge it held 10psi without any loss for hours ( that's as high as my gauge goes).
Assuming I have fixed the leak, I have run the engine on my bench, perhaps a total of 1/2 hour now, it started up immediately, but only stays running at 1/2 choke, it will stall if I open it up; unless, I open the throttle, then the engine revs up startlingly fast, and I have to control the throttle very carefully. If I slow the engine to what I feel is a nice idle speed it gets very rough and stalls.
This happens with the trans in gear or neutral.
I've fiddled with the mixing screw without much if any response, from nearly all the way in to 3 turns out! Pulling the plugs ( motorcraft A22) as supplied by the scrapper, shows a fair amount of soot on 1,2,3, and surprisingly clean on 4. Looking at the oil, I can't be 100% sure there isn't some water in it, either from failure to get all the old gunk out, or an unresolved leak, it's very slight, if there is water in it.
I have an electric fuel pump, and electronic ignition (still has a ballast resistor)
New seals and impeller, in the water pump. And the motor as supplied doesn't have a thermostat, ( is that needed?) it's raw water cooled in the delta.
I guess that's the background info, what else do I check to ensure a sound leak free water system, and how do I fix the idling, choke, issue?
Thanks for reading this far!,,, any help will be much appreciated! Cheers!
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:14 AM
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Hi Dude,
So, you pressure tested the manifold as well....and it sounds like you pressure tested everything. Sounds like a carb problem right now. We could pick at this all day but I'd take the carb off and carefully take it apart. I realize you did that once but dirt from a dirty tank is the most common cause of fuel related problems on these engines. Using choke makes me think you have an air leak and that will either be via the gasket that joints both halves or through the throttle linkage when carb related. Other areas to check would be all fuel lines and ensure clamps are tight and no air leak. Another problem that requires choke is fuel starvation...so you may want to check that.
Sounds like could be an air leak or plugged jet...regardless, a can and brake clean and an air compressor should allow you to clean it up pretty good. Carefully separate both haves of the carb. Remove all jets and set them aside. Remove float pin and carefully lift out the float without bending it. Then the needle and seat...clean these with the jets. Once jets and float, needle etc removed spray the whole thing with brake clean and blow it out with compressed air.

A few things I do when dealing with carbs. When cleaning jets you can use a very small strand of wire and wiggle it around the opening...will help ensure you have the right diameter and knock off crud...don't ream the holes larger. Jets are removed, passages in carb clean and blow with compressed air...then clean jet...then re-install.

Usually no gasket cement required on the carb and secure both halves very snug with the screws. I then plug the throat with a rag and spray some brake clean in the other end...cover with hand and blow compressed air between thumb and hand...if there is a leak between the two halves you will see bubbles.

Put it back on the boat, change filter if in doubt...and try it again.

Hope that helps...it could be a few things but I'd try this first.

For the water in the oil. You have it in the garage correct? Did you change the oil 3 times. If so, there still may be some residual moisture that may show as bubbles or froth on the dipstick and sometimes around the filler cap. Once you get it running decent run in for about an hour in the garage if you can. At this time leave the oil filler cap off and moisture should evaporate and make it's way out the cap opening. This would be a good opportunity to shut it down every 5 minutes or so and see if your oil is looking worse or increasing in volume as well. You may see some smoke come out the oil cap vent as well with increase rpm...that would be pretty much normal blow-by for this engine.
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Last edited by Mo; 10-31-2013 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 10-31-2013, 10:16 AM
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Could be worse

Sheermadness:

I appreciate your post. at least i see whatever source of my issue, is minor by comparison. i ran for about 10 hrs this summer -- and oil level only rose slightly -- certainly not enough to overflow into bilge.

I was at boat yesterday to attempt pressure test -- but only had bicycle valve available -- and that just didnt hold. So will return w proper auto valve and give it another go tomorrow. thanks
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Old 10-31-2013, 02:30 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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S.Madness
Is there a PVC valve on the engine? If so I'd block it off or disconnect it until you get the lean condition sorted out.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 11-04-2013, 07:19 PM
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Good news, bad news

Hi Gents:

Ok. compression tests complete, first on the manifold, then on the block, and both seemed to hold 20 psi for 15 mins or so. (i stopped test then since no loss of pressure).

I thought there would be some measurement error since hooking up the test is a trial in itself with right set of valves, bike pumps, etc. (for the 5/8 manifold hose plug, i used a wine cork - no sacrifice is too great for the A4 so i was forced to drink the bottle). All held together fine. i even dunked bike valve in water to makes sure no bubbles.

Here is photo of contraption:

Name:  compression test.jpg
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So good news, it looks like manifold and block are sound? Bad news, so now what?

1) as mentioned, water pump is brand new MMI with only a few hours
2) possible that the little steel plug that Don mentioned is the culprit, but wouldn't pressure test have caught that?
3) exhaust was rebuilt last winter, and water exhaust goes above waterline with mmi a/s valve at apex
4) dont think i had any hard starts this year -- maybe a few where i had to fire for 5 seconds 3 times -- and raw water was open. is that excessive?

As mentioned, water intrusion wasn't too bad, because level was only a tad high on dip stick. but milkshake oil all the same.

thanks for any next ideas
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:17 PM
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Smile

Steve,

I'd do the oil changes and fire up the engine at the dock...no sailing / healing. Run it for a couple of hours with the oil cap off and keep checking the oil every 10 minutes or so. The oil cap removed will help the moisture in there (after the oil changes) evaporate out of the engine. You need to see if it is still taking in water or has it stopped. If there is no further water incursion I'd be thinking exhaust as the culprit...if there is water incursion I'd be thinking water pump.

That's all I can think of for now.
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The optimist expects it to change.
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Old 11-04-2013, 11:43 PM
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One oddball thought (I'm good at those ):

Is it possible that some deck leakage (say from a leaky scupper fitting) could run along the underside of the cockpit, or down the outside of a hose or wire, and drip right into the flame arrestor?

I know it's pretty unlikely, but with a clean pressure check of the manifold & block, it seems like the only other ways for water to get in are the intake or the exhaust!
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Old 11-05-2013, 12:20 AM
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Next

Thanks Mo and Ed

The C&c is on the cradle and with cover. I have to find the water source to run it for extended period and will attempt to do so. Could be a looong hose is reqd. I'm not aware flame arrestor had water intrusion and there won't be any w winter cover

Wouldn't mind waiting until spring to fire it up. but I appreciate I better change oil a few more times to make sure water is out. I put more mmo in cylinders today

Thanks.
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  #60   IP: 174.114.173.25
Old 11-08-2013, 10:25 AM
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suspicious

Hi

I noticed the attached stain that appears to be sourced from manifold stud. (look just below manifold and above valve cover)

Could this potentially be something related to water in oil? Any other concerns here?

A reminder that manifold passed a pressure test a few days back.

thanks
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  #61   IP: 173.166.26.242
Old 11-08-2013, 10:54 AM
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Talking First Reaction to that Picture...

Threads in block for that stud allowing water to run out and along the stud.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:29 AM
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Whatever that stain is it isn't the current cooling system leak problem. The successful pressure test eliminated the possibility. That is, if the pressure test is to be believed. It makes no troubleshooting sense to perform a test and ignore the results.

However, I reviewed the pressure test protocol described in post #48, item 3. There is still one component that can deliver water into the crankcase that remains untested, assumed good because it's relatively new: the raw water pump. This is the third time I've mentioned it in this thread and it needs to be tested if for no reason other than to eliminate it positively without the assumption factor.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:01 PM
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test

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
This is the third time I've mentioned it in this thread and it needs to be tested if for no reason other than to eliminate it positively without the assumption factor.
Neil -- sorry, didnt mean to minimize your comment -- i will park the verdict on new MMI until proven innocent.

So i can use the same pressure test procedure on the water pump, eg plug one end, bike pump at the other and see if pump holds 20 PSI?

thanks
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:15 PM
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I apologize as well, been aggravated lately with some post content (not yours).

I cannot say that the pump will hold 20 psi but neither can I say it won't. I recently performed a full cooling system pressure test, pump and manifold included that held 5 psi for two weeks. IF there's a pump seal leak it should make itself known @ 5 psi IMO.

I'm not completely convinced the pump is the culprit but in truth, it's the only component remaining with a water/oil interface that has not been fully tested. As I said, this may be an exercise in eliminating it.
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Last edited by ndutton; 11-08-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 11-08-2013, 01:07 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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Grasping At Straws

The intermittent nature of the water intrusion has me scratching my head. Changing out the H2O pump appeared to cure the problem only to have it reappear a few months later.
Maybe there is a pinhole leak in a cylinder that was blocked in the pressure test. Perhaps by a piston ring? So repeat the pressure test with #1 at the top of its travel (compression or exhaust) then repeat the test with #1 at the bottom of its travel.
I've never torn an A4 down (and hope I never have to) so I'm really talking through my hat here.......
This advice and $5.00 will get you a small coffee at Starbucks (where have I heard that before?)
BTW: Did you retorque the manifold?

TRUE GRIT
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:06 PM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
The intermittent nature of the water intrusion has me scratching my head. Changing out the H2O pump appeared to cure the problem only to have it reappear a few months later.
Maybe there is a pinhole leak in a cylinder that was blocked in the pressure test. Perhaps by a piston ring? So repeat the pressure test with #1 at the top of its travel (compression or exhaust) then repeat the test with #1 at the bottom of its travel.
I've never torn an A4 down (and hope I never have to) so I'm really talking through my hat here.......
This advice and $5.00 will get you a small coffee at Starbucks (where have I heard that before?)
BTW: Did you retorque the manifold?

TRUE GRIT
Au contraire - your post makes a helluva lot of sense. I too am not convinced the block is sound. The manifold would indeed pass a pressure test even if leakage were occuring from that stud. Breaches in cylinder sleeves almost always develop low in the cylinder's travel and may not be detected until an engine is torn down (remember Ebben?). I concur with John; test the block again and while the pressure is on rotate the engine.
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Old 11-09-2013, 11:18 AM
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next

I'm away from boat for 2 weeks - so will do a new round of pressure tests on return - and report back.

in meantime, changed oil for a 3rd time (on the hard) and more MMO in cylinders so I'm hoping for small chance for corrosion.

thanks all
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:57 AM
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Now ok?

I have mentioned periodic water in oil earlier in this thread. After some oil changes this winter, launch on Saturday, and running for 30 mins or so yesterday, oil looks good now.

So question is where did water in oil come from late last season?
1) I had one episode of leaking thermostat housing. Water sprayed around head so possible intrusion through plug holes (even though plugs tight)?
2) Excessive healing on wild ride one day? But exhaust loop seems pretty far above waterline
3) Neptune messing with me for laughs

A few reminder facts from last year. Oil level never went much above normal, so couldnt have been much water. Pressure test appeared fine on block, manifold. New Moyer water pump.

At this point, will keep running and keep a careful eye after every sail. Thanks for prior concern and hope i'm not back at you on this one.
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Old 04-29-2014, 09:43 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Talking #3 Nah

Whippet, no it would of been fun to mess with you a bit but I have been occupied elsewhere.
Perhaps the water you speak of was just a bit leftover form the original episode. It can take a long time to get it all to BOIL off as you can't possibly get it all by sucking it out with the oil.
Keep an eye on the filler cap after running, once it cools it should be dry or oily but no moisture. The moisture will appear as long as there is still some in the oil.

Dave Neptune
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Old 04-29-2014, 12:25 PM
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pipe plug

Neptune, you are indeed "god of the sea"

As part of this episode, I read Don Moyer's writing about the steel pipe plug that can go bad.

Has anyone ever replaced this -- and is it recommended as part of "preventable maintenance"? My serial number is over 194,000.

From Don Moyer guide to "water in oil"
2) Remove the valve cover to inspect for water entering into the valve chamber through a hole in the very center of the water jacket behind the valve springs. In some of the later model engines (usually with serial numbers over 194,000), Universal used a 1/4" pipe plug to close a hole in that area. The problem is that they used plain steel plugs which have a strong potential to fail after the 25 or so years since they were installed.
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Old 04-29-2014, 12:32 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Thumbs up No biggie

Steve, I would not just replace "the plug" unless I was in the valve galley. I would probably inspect the plug when adjusting the valves though.
I would also "goop the plug up" with P'tex #2 when doing an R&R.

Dave Neptune
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Old 09-26-2014, 04:13 PM
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Flushing out water laden engine oil ?

I have several gallons of various grades of Mobil 1 sitting here. Already paid for and nowhere to use it. I have to pump out the grey water/oil mayonnaise from my A-4 soon. Any problem doing the flushing-oil- changes with a synthetic oil to get all the water out before before changing back to the 30 weight oil I typically operate the A-4 with?
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:16 PM
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It's OK to do that...just run the engine a couple of minutes prior to changing it again....if you use the boat the reversing gear may not work properly but to start up the engine, let it run a few minutes and change again....do it 3 to 5 times...should be fine. FWIW I use 15w40 diesel oil in mine and have for a number of years now...engine runs quieter and the oil has better protection...ensure you don't put synthetic in for your last change when you put the engine back in service.
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The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 09-26-2014 at 06:58 PM.
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