Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Owner Discussion Groups > Discussion Groups > C&C

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 24.141.50.26
Old 11-12-2014, 11:18 PM
L Thomas's Avatar
L Thomas L Thomas is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
C&C 27 Mark 1 Masthead Help!

Anyone know who made the mast and masthead for the C&C Mark 1 ? I was thinking of changing the wire/rope halyards to all rope. The problem is I would have to change the sheave size, from wire to ones for rope, and I don't think the fittings under/ or part of the mast cap will allow for it. I mean, going from 5/32 wire to , 3/8 braided rope, I don't see it. But then, I could be wrong. Anyone who's tried this, or can give me ideas or pointers, or info would be greatly appreciated.

thanks all
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 76.11.110.224
Old 11-12-2014, 11:40 PM
Mo's Avatar
Mo Mo is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Halifax NS,
Posts: 4,470
Thanks: 292
Thanked 411 Times in 272 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by L Thomas View Post
Anyone know who made the mast and masthead for the C&C Mark 1 ? I was thinking of changing the wire/rope halyards to all rope. The problem is I would have to change the sheave size, from wire to ones for rope, and I don't think the fittings under/ or part of the mast cap will allow for it. I mean, going from 5/32 wire to , 3/8 braided rope, I don't see it. But then, I could be wrong. Anyone who's tried this, or can give me ideas or pointers, or info would be greatly appreciated.

thanks all
Just change it....the pullys have a grove for wire but otherwise will accept line. I switched my main halyard out about 4 yrs ago and the jib last year...just do a good splice between both and pull it through....not an issue. If you need help joining the two lines talk to someone at the club that knows what they are doing...should go really easy.
__________________
Mo

"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 71.82.89.162
Old 11-13-2014, 08:40 AM
captainmurph captainmurph is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 35
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Replacing halyards

I just did this to my Cal 30 this year and, while I was able to find suitable sheaves to do the jib and spinnaker halyards, there was no way that a suitable sheave for 7/16" (or even 3/8") would fit in the main halyard location.

I ended up replacing the all wire rope halyard with 3/16" Dyneema which is stronger than the stainless it replaced. Since this has a winch on the mast and I have to go there to reef anyway, there didn't seem to be much downside of not running the line back to the cockpit.
__________________
Greg Murphy
S/V Amalia
1965 Cal 30
Muskegon, MI
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 71.246.213.187
Old 11-13-2014, 09:11 AM
edwardc's Avatar
edwardc edwardc is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 2,509
Thanks: 153
Thanked 595 Times in 388 Posts
When I did a mast rebuild two seasons ago, I switched from wire/rope to all-rope halyards. I removed the old aluminum sheaves which were in pretty bad shape, measured them, and had new ones made up by Zephyrwerks. ( http://zephyrwerks.com/ ).

Black delryn with bronze oilite bushings, and grooved for 3/8" rope. And a great price at $35 ea for four of them.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed
1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 11-13-2014, 10:34 AM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 2,002
Thanks: 16
Thanked 578 Times in 405 Posts
LT,
Wire/rope halyards have gone the way of T12 fluorescents - you can use them, but there are better alternatives.
No need to change the sheaves unless they're worn. My aluminum sheaves have bronze bushings, which were beat up/extruded and binding against the masthead fitting. Replaced the bushings and the sheaves are fine. The groove in the sheave is needed for wire. Having the groove will not bother a rope one bit.
Don't be afraid to go with one of the high-tech lines if needed for strength or reduced stretch. I helped build and sail on a 39' custom with a fractional rig - mainsail hoist is 50'. The main halyard is 5/16" - yes, it's 2:1 dead ended at the masthead, but it works fine. Only down side is that when you get the main up, you have 100' of relatively stiff line around your ankles that needs coiling. You quickly learn to do a figure 8 coil using a cabin-top winch and your free hand.
Go all rope - you won't regret it!
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 174.91.4.185
Old 11-13-2014, 07:34 PM
Jimmy Jimmy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: London Ontario
Posts: 128
Thanks: 3
Thanked 15 Times in 5 Posts
Double Check your Splice

Double check the quality of your splice.Many C&C masts have foam blocks spaced throughout them, and if your new line is a larger diameter than old, there will be a lot of tugging involved, as you try to pull it through.
Sadly I learned this the hard way......Upgraded my VHF antena cable this spring. The splice between old and new came apart halfway thru, and I spent a further 20 or so hours putting a show on for fellow Club members at the gin pole.
How frustrating to try to thread a needle,in the dark, 30 feet beyond your reach

Cheers,
Jimmy
__________________

Jimmy
C&C 29 MK1
Erieau , Lake Erie
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 50.168.135.40
Old 11-14-2014, 07:20 AM
blhickson's Avatar
blhickson blhickson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 107
Thanks: 37
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
All rope halyard

There's a great youtube video of swapping halyards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4BYQY_2jbU

Most important part is STITCHING the two ends of your lines together so it doesn't come apart inside the mast. Sew it together well and then tape over it.
I'm curious what size and kind of line you decide on. I've got to replace my main halyard as well. (After the A4 starts purring again...
__________________
Barbara L. Hickson
Flight Risk
C&C 33-1
Chas., SC
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 71.246.213.187
Old 11-14-2014, 08:55 AM
edwardc's Avatar
edwardc edwardc is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 2,509
Thanks: 153
Thanked 595 Times in 388 Posts
My halyards are external, so I didn't have the potential problem of the splice hanging up on obstructions.

For the rope, I used 3/8" New England Ropes "VPC". It's a midrange, midcost hybrid line, with low stretch, good "hand", and fairly flexible. Defender has the best price on it at $1.38/ft.

And I can't stress enough what a difference changing the sheaves made. The old ones were solid aluminum, with no bearing and flat sides. They were seized on the pins and rubbed on the insides of the masthead box. Used to have to manually pull the sails down. The new ones have both a bearing, and a "stepped" face, with a small shoulder close to the pin. This keeps them from rubbing on the sides of the box.

This reduction in drag is so great that, for both the main and the roller-furled genoa, if I were to release a halyard, the sails would fall to the deck unassisted. Makes both lowering and raising them vastly easier. I can now hoist the main all the way to the top by hand, only using the winch for the final tensioning.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed
1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 70.27.58.162
Old 11-14-2014, 04:02 PM
67c&ccorv's Avatar
67c&ccorv 67c&ccorv is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London, ON
Posts: 1,559
Thanks: 4
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
I use these guys for replacement parts for my C&C Corvette mast;

http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Kenyon_Spars/KENYON.html

https://www.dwyermast.com/Default.asp

If they don't have it - not too likely anyone else will.

Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 24.141.50.26
Old 11-15-2014, 04:14 PM
L Thomas's Avatar
L Thomas L Thomas is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
C&C 27 Mark 1 Masthead Help

Hi Gents
Thank you for your help. There is not a lot of info or photo's of my boat or mast head how to's. If I were to change the sheaves, I would have to pull of the mast cap and punch out the sheave pin to get them out?. If it gets warmer and doesn't snow, I will go down and measure and check them. The main doesn't all the way by itself, I figured the problem was in the sail slides needing some lubrication. (plastic ones in a groove).

Thanks everyone.
Lawrence.
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 129.83.31.2
Old 02-21-2015, 11:59 AM
Vermonstah Vermonstah is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Shelburne VT
Posts: 111
Thanks: 66
Thanked 21 Times in 13 Posts
Both trying to replace wire to rope halyards on C&C 27' Mk I

Lawrence,
We might be able to assist each other here. As many others on this forum know, I am no expert, so I am not quick with the advice. But I will gladly share my experience in hopes that it is useful to you.

I also have a Mk I, #45. I have had her for going on 3 years. I have no idea how old the halyards ares, but they are old - and both jib and main are wire to rope. I also have roller furling, which I have come to learn is a big deal, for the Mk I anyway.

I replaced my main halyard with 90 feet of an all rope, 10 mm line. I went with New England VPC hybrid but just about any modern line would have been an upgrade to what I had on there. I went with 10 mm because I did NOT want to swap out any existing deck hardware. My existing clutches work well and do NOT leak, no guarantee that remains true if I start messing with them [though I have found the current thread on butyl tape VERY informative!]

For the main, I can attest 10 mm line will pass thru the masthead. I had all of 3 cruises at the end of last season with the new main halyard, so I cannot say anything definitive about durability of the line from any additional friction at the masthead. If I detect excessive wear on the main halyard, I will investigate whether I can drop down to 8mm line and still remain compatible with my blocks, clutches etc.

I did NOT change any sheaves at the masthead. And I am trying to avoid that modification, for now anyway. Lots of opinions on that, both on this forum and on others, like the C&C '27 Association. Remember, I am no expert. But I have been up my mast, and the sheaves looked "OK" to me, for whatever that is worth. Really, not much, even to me.

I took some pictures of my masthead that I posted here: http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8587
You can see that there is very little clearance for the jib halyard.

At haulout, the yard foreman used the crane and inspected the masthead, declaring the sheaves "good to go" for rope halyards but confirming that there is VERY little clearance between the masthead and the mounting hardware for the roller furler. As for the jib halyard, a 10 mm line will NOT pass thru my masthead in its current configuration. Not going to happen.

Here is my current thinking: for my jib halyard, I am considering a rope to rope halyard, say 1/4" forward section spliced to 3/8" to run back to the cockpit. These thicknesses roughly approximate the wire and rope sections of my previous jib halyard. [Though my thickness measurements of the rope section vary from 3/8 to 7/16 over different points along the rope and actually exceed 1/2 at the spice with the wire] I got the idea of splicing rope to rope from Annapolis Performance Sailing and they recommended that I use a Vectran Cored Double braid.

Do you happen to have the length measurements for the two sections of your wire to rope, jib halyard? I cannot get reliable measurements from my previous halyard, as I know it has been altered and it had very little tail back to the cockpit. I want to get a "second opinion" on the lengths of these two sections because I know the slice will NOT fit thru the masthead - not going to happen. And if I get the measurements correct, I should not need the splice to pass over the masthead sheave.

If you are interested, I started a similar thread here on the C&C '27 Forum:http://www.cc27association.com/f3/to...fid=2&tid=8220

But, if I get any additional info from the Association forum, I will update my thread here on the Moyer forum as well.

Best of luck to you!
Brian
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 50.168.135.40
Old 02-22-2015, 08:28 AM
blhickson's Avatar
blhickson blhickson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 107
Thanks: 37
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Just swapped halyards yesterday!

. West Marine just had a 40% off line sale. I got the NE VPC 10mm 3/8th inch smallest that my clutch will hold. The hardest part for me to figure out was joining the cut end of the old wire to the bitter end of the new. Tried laying them side by side and sewed and then taped together with a good 12" of overlap. This would not fit through the masthead block with out yanking on it. Did not want to do that. Also if you're working by yourself, the sharp angle going into the block was going to be a problem with the new fairly stiff VPC. Here's what I did:
Cut the old shackle off the wire halyard and tape the frayed ends together tightly. (I used electrical tape, had no duct tape). A sail needle will pass thru the stainless wire twist so thread that with a good length say 3 ft of waxed thread double it and knot. I had to butt the end of the old wire halyard to the whipped end of the new VPC in order for it to pass thru said masthead block. Sew the line to the wire, passing the needle behind the whipping and well above the taped end of the wire, high enough that any pulling is not going to fray it and pull thru your taped end. Make as many passes from rope to wire keeping the butted ends together as you've got thread. Knot off the end of your sewing several times. It may all look a bit messy. But tape over the joint you've made; I used painters tape as it was the most flexible smoothest I had on board. You have a single thickness of line now to pass thru the block.
Before you start raisin the new halyard, be absolutely sure that it can run free and there are no kinks anywhere. Using the old halyard, begin pulling new halyard thru. When your joint gets very close to the block, stop and gently bring the line aft to the stern rail and tie it off so that it has enough slack to get the joint through. All you're doing is making the angle of entry greater to reduce the friction. Go forward to mast and begin pulling again. It helps for the line to have momentum as it approaches the block so give it a gentle running start. I got mine to go over the block on the 3rd try. So relieved!! Hope this helps. Also the C & C Owners forum is fantastic for this kind of info. See www.c&c-photoalbum.com for more info.
__________________
Barbara L. Hickson
Flight Risk
C&C 33-1
Chas., SC
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 68.111.11.84
Old 02-22-2015, 10:52 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by blhickson View Post
.
Cut the old shackle off the wire halyard and tape the frayed ends together tightly. (I used electrical tape, had no duct tape). A sail needle will pass thru the stainless wire twist so thread that with a good length say 3 ft of waxed thread double it and knot. I had to butt the end of the old wire halyard to the whipped end of the new VPC in order for it to pass thru said masthead block. Sew the line to the wire, passing the needle behind the whipping and well above the taped end of the wire, high enough that any pulling is not going to fray it and pull thru your taped end. Make as many passes from rope to wire keeping the butted ends together as you've got thread. Knot off the end of your sewing several times. It may all look a bit messy. But tape over the joint you've made; I used painters tape as it was the most flexible smoothest I had on board. You have a single thickness of line now to pass thru the block.
info. See www.c&c-photoalbum.com for more info.
After you have done the butt splice and get the splice taped up grab the spliced area with a couple pairs of pliers and twist one of the pliers clockwise and the other one counterclockwise. Electrical tape works the best because it stretches easy.
This will add a bit of twist and make the splice stronger.
Practice makes perfect.

TRUE GRIT

Maybe this is in the C&C album - it wouldn't come up on my computer.

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 02-22-2015 at 10:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 129.83.31.2
Old 02-23-2015, 07:51 AM
Vermonstah Vermonstah is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Shelburne VT
Posts: 111
Thanks: 66
Thanked 21 Times in 13 Posts
Barbara - this is very good advice, especially splicing to the wire portion of your existing halyard - I struggled with this very thing as there was no way that the splice on my existing wire to rope halyard was passing thru the masthead.

Thing is, that on the C&C 27, Mk I, a 3/8" (or 10 mm) jib halyard is not passing thru the masthead. I am still looking, but have yet to find anyone that has done it without any modifications. I stripped away the core of a 10 mm line and then got the cover to pass over the sheave but could not get the full line thru....

Which brings me to another tip that I learned from Shawn on this forum. If you don't follow these excellent tips on securing a temporary splice and subsequently lose your messenger line, affix your messenger line to say 16 to 18" of bicycle chain and then pass the chain over the masthead sheaves. The chain has a good combination of mass, flexibility and rigidity to pass over the sheave and then pull your messenger line down thru the mast.

Still hoping to get some info on the Mk I from someone on the forum of the C&C 27 Association. I have not had as much luck with the forum on the C&C owners photo album site, does not seem to have as many 27 owners there. And I keep discovering new ways in which the 27s varied, even within the same Marks.

Thanks for all the great suggestions.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to mark crankshaft before removal? Val V Overhaul 6 11-23-2013 02:57 PM
Hot Exhaust for a C&C 27 pmcdonald C&C 4 10-02-2008 05:31 AM
C&C Corvette + A4 in Toronto, Canada Bob.Griffin Introductions 0 06-05-2007 04:06 PM
Volume of oil for C&C 34 1981 Malcolm Smith General Maintenance 1 07-28-2005 02:31 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved