Child hood dream?

[oceanwatersailor]

My first post here as you can see. To have a sailboat has been a dream of mine and hope I can pass it on to my children.

I have not ever worked on a marine engine before though I am always working on my own cars. I am happy that you all are here and this looks like a very helpful bunch so here goes.

I just recently purchased a 1969 Morgan 33 /w Atomic4 30HP Model 5101.
It is not local to me so these are all the pics I have for some time and not a quick drive to the yard (9hrs).


You can kick me later for this but I purchased this 1969 engine with out knowing if it runs by my own account. I was told it was winterized a year ago, ran before that and it is raw water cooled with an upgraded alternator.

Some questions I have and welcome any comments on this engine.
1. how do you test run this on land?
2. what is the best way to test the compression after it starts to see if it is even good?
3. What has been the run of the mill cost to get these engines back in shape or does it make sense to replace with something else?
4. Where is the DIY section if there is one? hoping...
5. what is the safe RPM to cruse at?
6. what is the best prop to have- best bang for the buck?


Funny thing is when I first looked at this engine I just said to myself I will just check the oil and then bump it over a few turns to see what she does.....I could not find the dipstick

[Mo]

Welcome.

Welcome aboard...we will do our best to help you out.

Doesn't look too bad. I'll relay a few things to you so you can avoid some problems.
-see if it will turn over on the batteries and check the compression with a compression guage. If the numbers are 90 or above on all you are OK. Just let us know what the numbers are and we will tell you the best course of action.....then...
-drain and replace fuel...if you can clean out the fuel tank.
-change fuel filters.
-remove and clean the carb out...not hard to do at all but you may need a gasket or two if someone put sealant on them...otherwise should be able to use the same ones.
-check and see if it has electronic ignition or points and condenser and if it has points and condenser put a new set in.
-new set of plugs.
-ensure you have a water source available to cool the engine when starting


Read up on all these areas and then get it ready and try starting it ..may need a few more things here and there but usually not too bad to get going. If this sounds overwhelming it's not...hardest part is getting rid of the old gas and cleaning the tank...really a must because you have no idea what is in it.

[JOHN COOKSON]

The best thing you could do "right now" is to get a copy of the Moyer A4 M&R (maintenance and repair) manuel available at the Moyer online store.
For the engine to start you will need compression, fuel, and spark.
Put up a post(s) if you need help or further explanation.

TRUE GRIT

PS: We're all DIYs in this forum.

[ILikeRust]

Some questions I have and welcome any comments on this engine.
1. how do you test run this on land?

You can plumb in a "T" fitting to the raw water intake and connect a garden hose to it, to provide cooling water. I have run mine that way on the hard for nearly an hour, with the exhaust water just falling out on the ground. I don't have a pic of my setup to show you.

2. what is the best way to test the compression after it starts to see if it is even good?

Compression tester, turn the engine over, see what she reads. Or, very simple method - remove one spark plug, hold your thumb over the hole, crank the engine and see if you can keep your thumb there or whether the pressure forces your thumb off.

3. What has been the run of the mill cost to get these engines back in shape or does it make sense to replace with something else?

First, I don't think there is an "average" cost to get one back into running condition - it really depends on what, if anything, is actually wrong with it. It might cost just a few hours of your time and a few dollars in simple parts; it might cost a couple hundred dollars in parts; or you might choose (or find that it needs) to completely overhaul it and spend a couple thousand.

Second, I am of the opinion that no, it doesn't make sense to replace it with something else. The "something else" would either be another Atomic 4, or otherwise a diesel engine. Either option would cost several thousand dollars, and with the diesel costing much more and being a more complicated conversion. I'm willing to bet you'll be able to get that engine running just fine for far less - again, unless there's something truly wrong with it (like a broken connecting rod or something drastic).

4. Where is the DIY section if there is one? hoping...

Pretty much the entire forum is the DIY section.

But definitely get yourself a copy of the Moyer Service and Overhaul manual, available here.

And check out Moyer's excellent tech tips and FAQs.

5. what is the safe RPM to cruse at?

In the neighborhood of 2000-2400. This will depend greatly on your prop.

6. what is the best prop to have- best bang for the buck?

Hoo boy! That's opening up a bucket o' worms... for a good primer, read Moyer's FAQ on prop selection.

I could not find the dipstick

Did you find it? I hope you have by now. Just on the off chance you're still hunting for it, it's behind the distributor, next to and a bit lower than the coil - it's kinda down low, behind the main block casting.

[lat 64]

Welcome!
I can't beat you up for not testing the engine before you bought it. I did the same as you.
Congrats on your new boat.

Hey what's that capacitor on the bulkhead? A homemade Tazer?

Russ

[mikeysail]

I was wondering the same thing. It looks like a big honking electrolytic.

[romantic comedy]

Have you sailed before?

Let me get this right, you want to leave a 1969 sailboat to your kids? Is it because they dont have enough things to do?

My advice is to get it going with minimal cost. Then see how you like the sailing thing. Sometimes it is just a fantasy that does not live up to expectations.

Good luck with the boat, welcome to the forum. Plenty of help here.

[lat 64]

Have you sailed before?

Let me get this right, you want to leave a 1969 sailboat to your kids? Is it because they dont have enough things to do?

My advice is to get it going with minimal cost. Then see how you like the sailing thing. Sometimes it is just a fantasy that does not live up to expectations.

Good luck with the boat, welcome to the forum. Plenty of help here.

I am completely onboard with a childhood fantasy realized!
Get the motor running, get that thing in the water and then spend a night aboard with a good book and a favorite beverage. when you wake up on a chilly morning in your own "yacht" you are king of the world. nothing compares. You go guy!

Russ

[Kelly]

Testing the engine out of the water

I gave a "thumbs up" to Bill T.'s post as I think he answered your questions very well, and then some.

I would just add that the plumbing of a garden hose to the raw water intake in order to run the engine on the hard needs to be approached with caution. I'm not sure if Bill meant he would run this hose to a bucket that he would then keep filled with another hose or if he was connecting directly to a spigot and pressurized water. I did this and used the bucket technique as I was afraid to introduce too much pressure to the cooling circuits in the engine.

You can actually run the engine up to operating temperature just by feeding the raw water intake and the exhaust water to the same bucket. This creates a closed loop but will allow you to test the engine easily without worrying about keeping the bucket filled. Just be sure to stop the engine when you reach 170°-190°F. If not, you will quickly overheat.

[sailbristol]

Welcome!
I can't beat you up for not testing the engine before you bought it. I did the same as you.
Congrats on your new boat.

Hey what's that capacitor on the bulkhead? A homemade Tazer?

Russ

it stops alt voltage spikes for early loran

[ILikeRust]

I gave a "thumbs up" to Bill T.'s post as I think he answered your questions very well, and then some.

Thanks!

I would just add that the plumbing of a garden hose to the raw water intake in order to run the engine on the hard needs to be approached with caution. I'm not sure if Bill meant he would run this hose to a bucket that he would then keep filled with another hose or if he was connecting directly to a spigot and pressurized water. I did this and used the bucket technique as I was afraid to introduce too much pressure to the cooling circuits in the engine.

I hooked the hose directly to the T. I installed a ball valve in between the hose and the T, so I could turn the water on at the spigot (100 feet away), with any flow or pressure inside the boat. Then I could open the valve and control the flow right there next to the engine, and when I was done, shut the water off and disconnect without having lots of water falling out all over the place.

I guess it just seems to me that you're not going to introduce so much pressure that you're going to hurt anything in the cooling system. It seems to me it should be able to hold in the few PSI that are imposed by a garden hose. I did this several times with no problems at all. But of course, there definitely are several ways to do this - all that you need to do is deliver enough water to keep the engine generally cool enough for the relatively short period you'll be running it. You most certainly can just drop a short section of hose from the T into a bucket and let the raw water pump suck the water out of the bucket, while filling the bucket from the garden hose. That is exactly what I did when I first ran my engine on the test stand in my driveway after the rebuild.

It's all good!

[oceanwatersailor]

Hello All,

Dear A4 Owners,
You all are so wonderful and encouraging with your posts. I am glad that it does not sound to crazy of a dream! I will be making another trip up to VA and trying these suggestions. I have had very little sailing experience and so I will be trying to get myself in a local club on the lake here. I found a Moyer Marine manual on ebay that I might get to help me get educated on this engine.

I see now where the dipstick is to be so I can hopefully find it now. I am crossing my fingers on the compression.

I am also in the process of figuring if I am going to sail her down to Ga or use a shipping company to get her down here. It's about 495 nmi. Has anyone here made this passage before?

[sastanley]

OWS..yes...we have Paul & Trina who are presently on the way back up and are in Georgia...they started in Delaware and made it all the way to Key West FL!
Here is a link to their trip, being documented here on the Moyer forum. - http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6916

Hanley has also made the ICW trip from Martha's Vineyard to Florida many times.

Everyone's got you on a pretty good line here..I have a couple of observations for you from your pics...With a serial number on the engine flywheel of 200xxx, it is likely NOT the first engine in that boat. A casting date is stamped in the block just under the valve cover on the port side...we'll help you find it later...additionally the serial number of the block is also usually stamped in a flat area just under the oil fill..I'll go back & check your pics again to see if I can see it. edit - Yup..the good thing is it looks like the serial # on the block matches the flywheel cover..it is hard to read, but I can see a 200xxx on the flat area...so that is probably a early 1980's motor?

My other observation is that the alternator looks like a stock 35A Motorola to me, right down to the regulator hanging off the front of it...just painted...however, it is entirely possible someone rebuilt the internals.

BTW - I am the kid who's Dad left him his dream of a sailboat..well..he's kinda cheap, I did have to buy him lunch so he would hand over the title..he got tired of sailing, bought a land yacht and summers in NY and winters in FL now.

Have fun with the boat!

[TomG]

Hello All,

Dear A4 Owners,
You all are so wonderful and encouraging with your posts. I am glad that it does not sound to crazy of a dream! I will be making another trip up to VA and trying these suggestions. I have had very little sailing experience and so I will be trying to get myself in a local club on the lake here. I found a Moyer Marine manual on ebay that I might get to help me get educated on this engine.

I see now where the dipstick is to be so I can hopefully find it now. I am crossing my fingers on the compression.

I am also in the process of figuring if I am going to sail her down to Ga or use a shipping company to get her down here. It's about 495 nmi. Has anyone here made this passage before?

OWS,

Welcome to the forum. I am of the opinion that there isn't an A-4 related question than can't be answered on this forum. The wealth of knowledge here is only eclipsed by the camaraderie of the participants. You are in a good place. Depending on where you are in Virginia, you might be able to attract a forum regular to give you a quick tutorial on the A-4... fermented, malted barley and hops is pretty good bait.

Bill and others have answered most of your questions, but I'll a few more thoughts. This is a good checklist to follow when re-commissioning your engine. This is from Don himself, so it's good data:
Trouble-free Spring start up

Depending on who/how the engine was last put to bed, your restart could be simple or not. Marine engines that are layed-up can be afflicted with sticky/stuck valves and rings. A couple good squirts with Marvel Mystery Oil (I call it, "Nectar of the Gods") in each cylinder and preferably down each exhaust and intake port around the valve stems can really help loosen stuck rings and valves. Let it sit for a week if you can. The next thing I would check is fuel quality in the tank AND the carb. Caleb and I take turns posting pictures of what we found in our tanks after an extended time on the hard. I think it's my turn:


If the carb wasn't drained of fuel when it was winterized, you likely have a gelatinous mess in the fuel bowl. You can probably remove the carb fuel bowl drain plug and get an idea if you are going to have issues. The A-4 is a wonderful engine, but the updraft Zenith carb is quite finicky when it comes to fuel quality. I installed a high-quality Racor fuel/water seperator as the primary filter between the tank and the fuel pump. Then I use a secondary (some people call them "polishing filters") filter between the pump and the carb. This approach has saved me much aggravation from fuel quality issues. I can't stress enough the importance of clean fuel.

You might want to check or replace the water pump impeller. If it is old and brittle, it is not uncommon for a blade to break off and lodge somewhere in the innards of the beast. This is something to avoid!

Don't crank for more than ten seconds with water flowing through the exhaust. It can fill up the water lift and then flood the engine. This is also something to avoid.

Finally, I would check the disty cap and the advance mechanism. Sometimes moisture can cause problems there.

Looking at the pictures, the flywheel cover doesn't seem to jive with the '69 year model of the boat. You might have a newer A-4. If you can read the serial number stamped on the block, it's pretty easy to find the month and year the engine was cast.

As far as sailing the boat from VA to GA, there are many folks here who have done or are presently doing just that. I'm sure they will have some advice. My opinion is more philosophical - don't plan a long trip on a boat you don't know very well. If you have lots of time, and I mean you don't have any other commitments, it could be done. But for a novice sailor to move a big, unfamiliar boat that far would be a big deal. It's an older boat, things will break, you're a new skipper, so there's that learning curve, the weather will not cooperate, the tides will not cooperate, the skinny water through the ICW will grab you. Get to know your boat, get comfortable with what both you and the boat can do, then plan a long passage. Figure out how much it will cost to ship the boat versus what it will really cost to sail/motor (mostly motor) that far in terms of meals, fuel, transient fees, repairs, and lost time at work and you will probably come out way ahead on having it shipped.

Good luck and welcome. And ask all the questions you want. Everyone here wants to help!

Edit: According the serial number on the flywheel, your engine from the late '70s. Atomic 4 Serial Numbers

[tenders]

OWS,
My opinion is more philosophical - don't plan a long trip on a boat you don't know very well. If you have lots of time, and I mean you don't have any other commitments, it could be done. But for a novice sailor to move a big, unfamiliar boat that far would be a big deal. It's an older boat, things will break, you're a new skipper, so there's that learning curve, the weather will not cooperate, the tides will not cooperate, the skinny water through the ICW will grab you. Get to know your boat, get comfortable with what both you and the boat can do, then plan a long passage. Figure out how much it will cost to ship the boat versus what it will really cost to sail/motor (mostly motor) that far in terms of meals, fuel, transient fees, repairs, and lost time at work and you will probably come out way ahead on having it shipped.

This is very sage advice. The cost of having to get towed off a sandbar and/or repairing damage from running aground, not to mention the PITA time to effect a repair and/or social capital spent in convincing other members of the family that a sailboat is still a good idea, may help tilt the scales towards a land transit.

That big capacitor should probably be taken out of the system; it's an unnecessary complication these days and might even be a detriment if the capacitor starts to fail. As mentioned, it was put there to filter ignition noise which interfered with LORAN navigation devices in the same way that ignition noises sometimes interfere with AM radio reception.