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Old 11-28-2015, 01:03 AM
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Stupid mistake - overheating

Hi all,
I had a bunch of new people on my boat today and what with one thing and another, forgot to open the raw water intake, till there was smoke in the engine compartment. I'm embarrassed and humbly accept your scorn.

In any case, I opened seacock and idled it for a while. No obvious crisis. It started and ran fine a few hours later. My question - what gets damaged in such an overheating scenario? I'm RWC and I have no idea how long its been since its been flushed. certainly over 10 years.
thx!
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Old 11-28-2015, 01:51 AM
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Well, you'll beat yourself up worse than any of us will.

If it were me, I'd perform a cooling system pressure test straight away and if successful, change the oil and impeller. Other things to consider are exhaust system components that depend on cooling water for their survival, non-metallic waterlift (if present)and exhaust hose specifically.

Admirably, by your candor you have become the poster child for any of three levels of alarm system. With the basic Cole-Hersee system you would have had an alert as the temp rose above the trip point. Upgrade the basic system with the raw water flow sensor and you'd hear the buzzer within seconds of starting the engine long before the temps got out of hand. Go the full monty with the EWDS and you'd have a buzzer to get your attention and a green light identified 'FLOW' telling you raw water flow was the reason for the buzzer. Your experience is exactly why these systems were developed.
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:07 AM
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Exhaust Hose Failure

I am in the process of "Fixing" the damage from I believe the exact "oops" moment that you've described in this thread! I had a "Eureka!" moment last night while removing the exhaust hose from the hot section of my manifold. The relatively new hose had collapsed internally! There was no evidence what-so-ever that anything was wrong on the outside. This experience has led me to realize how wonderful having everyone's knowledge and experience at your fingertips on this forum. Thanks to you all,and a special THANK YOU to the person that originally posted that I should figure where was the HY2O coming from in the first place! My humble apologies for my smart- ass reply.It,s a Ranger thing.Ha
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:56 AM
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I do turn on the water intake, but right above it is the gas valve and I regularly
forget to turn that on.

Steve
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:05 AM
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Early in my Atomic 4 life I had a similar experience. After restart I had a big leak from the Vetus water lock which I was able to repair with epoxy and bailing wire, and continue to march. However, you should know that often damage can occur internally (collapsed baffles) that may not be obvious. The good news is that frequently the water lock will take the beating and not transfer the heat to the exhaust hose (so readily) which is a much more difficult repair. Monitor your performance after the event closely in case you have such damage. + 1 on the flow sensor which I am incorporating into my exhaust system this year. BTW, I now carry a spare water lock.
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Old 11-28-2015, 11:31 AM
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About all that can really be damaged if the engine re-started and ran like NORMAL is the water pump impeller (very doubtful) or the plastic and rubber in the exhaust itself. If you were running easy there is probably no heat damage.

Just check for leaks and you probably will be fine. As far as the engine itself unless it seized temporarily or fully seized there is no internal damage.

Give the oil a good sniffing and if it smells burnt or odd change it before next use. The smokey engine box is normal when the engine gets hotter than normal and it is mostly the residues accumulated on the exhaust and the manifold that evaporate away causing many a nasty smell. What you don't want to smell is rubber or plastic having burnt which is probably going to be limited to the exhaust itself.

I sent you a PM (late) the other day. Did your buddy get the pump out of his Carter?

Dave Neptune
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Old 11-28-2015, 02:56 PM
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I had someone do this on my boat. What got killed was the exhaust hose. It wasn't obvious at the time, but the interior was coming apart.
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Old 11-28-2015, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post

I sent you a PM (late) the other day. Did your buddy get the pump out of his Carter?

Dave Neptune
Dave, no sign of a pm from you (I've been looking). Send again pls?
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
About all that can really be damaged if the engine re-started and ran like NORMAL is the water pump impeller (very doubtful) or the plastic and rubber in the exhaust itself. If you were running easy there is probably no heat damage.

Just check for leaks and you probably will be fine. As far as the engine itself unless it seized temporarily or fully seized there is no internal damage.

Give the oil a good sniffing and if it smells burnt or odd change it before next use. The smokey engine box is normal when the engine gets hotter than normal and it is mostly the residues accumulated on the exhaust and the manifold that evaporate away causing many a nasty smell. What you don't want to smell is rubber or plastic having burnt which is probably going to be limited to the exhaust itself.

Dave Neptune
Thanks Dave, Neil, Hanley and all for quick response.

The engine did not seize - I idled it for a few minutes after getting water into it. Until the smoke cleared at least. To my nose it was burning-oil smoke, not burning rubber smoke. And cooling water seemed to be spurting out in more or less normal fashion. It did *seem* to have a new noise, a kind of low rattle, but I may have been imagining it. I checked the oil after, still full, didn't notice burnt smell but I'll check again. I'm due for an oil change anyway (not my favorite job). My exhaust is old, original afaik, and the original builder spared no expense. I'll monitor it.

None of this would have happened of course, if I hadn't observed the safety precaution of not opening raw water until the engine was running
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Admirably, by your candor you have become the poster child for any of three levels of alarm system. .
lucky me ! When is the photo shoot?

So what does a water/coolant flow sensor look like? And where would you put it - in a T in the cooling hose after the pump?
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:39 PM
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Any time I have the raw water turned off I pull the coil wire out

Quote:
Originally Posted by HalcyonS View Post
Thanks Dave, Neil, Hanley and all for quick response.

The engine did not seize - I idled it for a few minutes after getting water into it. Until the smoke cleared at least. To my nose it was burning-oil smoke, not burning rubber smoke. And cooling water seemed to be spurting out in more or less normal fashion. It did *seem* to have a new noise, a kind of low rattle, but I may have been imagining it. I checked the oil after, still full, didn't notice burnt smell but I'll check again. I'm due for an oil change anyway (not my favorite job). My exhaust is old, original afaik, and the original builder spared no expense. I'll monitor it.

None of this would have happened of course, if I hadn't observed the safety precaution of not opening raw water until the engine was running
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Old 11-29-2015, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalcyonS View Post
lucky me ! When is the photo shoot?

So what does a water/coolant flow sensor look like? And where would you put it - in a T in the cooling hose after the pump?
This item is available from Moyer Marine. It is an in line pressure switch which activates when there is no pressure in the line. I intend to set mine up with a buzzer that will get my attention.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 11-29-2015, 11:53 AM
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The flow sensor switch should be installed somewhere between the raw water pump and the injection point on the hot section. It can be done direct in line or part of a diverter system. I think the preferred point is just before injection.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 11-29-2015 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalcyonS View Post
So what does a water/coolant flow sensor look like? And where would you put it - in a T in the cooling hose after the pump?
The flow sensor is intended to be installed such that all the water flows through it and can be anywhere in the flow path before or after the block and bypass plumbing. Placing it in a branch Tee will not allow water to flow through resulting in unreliable operation. It is not a pressure switch.

The MMI flow switch is designed to be compatible with the standard Cole-Hersee basic alarm system, also available from MMI.
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Old 11-29-2015, 01:38 PM
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Perhaps someone who has actually installed one of these switches could post a picture of the set up?
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Old 11-29-2015, 05:58 PM
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Question Water Lock?

So what is a water lock? See #5 above. I do not think I have one. I have a MM Tartan standpipe that is routed to my exhaust hose.--no Vetus here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
.....The good news is that frequently the water lock will take the beating and not transfer the heat to the exhaust hose (so readily) which is a much more difficult repair. Monitor your performance after the event closely in case you have such damage. + 1 on the flow sensor which I am incorporating into my exhaust system this year. BTW, I now carry a spare water lock.
Mary

Last edited by HOTFLASH; 11-29-2015 at 06:00 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 11-29-2015, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOTFLASH View Post
So what is a water lock? See #5 above. I do not think I have one. I have a MM Tartan standpipe that is routed to my exhaust hose.--no Vetus here.



Mary
If you have a standpipe you sure don't need a water lock, Vetus or otherwise. If I had the room I'd ditch the Vetus in a heartbeat and get the standpipe.
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Old 11-29-2015, 06:09 PM
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Vetus water lock:
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Old 11-29-2015, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOTFLASH View Post
So what is a water lock? I do not think I have one. I have a MM Tartan standpipe that is routed to my exhaust hose.
A waterlock aka waterlift is a type of marine exhaust component in a system designed for it. Factors that determine which system a boat can utilize include engine location, accommodation layout and cabinetry.

The charm of a standpipe is unlike a waterlift it cannot backflood the engine during a hard start episode. It also does not add exhaust backpressure in operation. The charm of a waterlift is it isn't constrained by engine location, layout or cabinetry. For either to function well they must be designed and installed properly. This is not an area for freelancing. Here are some pics:

Standpipe

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Waterlift

Name:  Waterlift detail.jpg
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Old 11-29-2015, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
The charm of a standpipe is unlike a waterlift it cannot backflood the engine during a hard start episode. It also does not add exhaust backpressure in operation. The charm of a waterlift is it isn't constrained by engine location, layout or cabinetry. For either to function well they must be designed and installed properly.
Here's a pic of my standpipe. Its kinda tight in there. That's quite a pipe-welding job, isn't it?
So my caution in not turning on the raw water was unnecessary ?
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Old 11-29-2015, 11:02 PM
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Ooh, nice water jacketed hot section too.

Yep, leaving the raw water off for starting is completely unnecessary in your case.
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Old 11-30-2015, 11:26 PM
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Ooh, nice water jacketed hot section too.
owner/builder was an engineer at JPL, working on Apollo program. His son told me the custom welding was done in the JPL shops. 50 years later there's not a speck of rust on the stainless. Aerospace grade
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Old 12-01-2015, 09:15 AM
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You might have got Inconel - that is what airplane exhausts went to when stainless wasn't good enough. If so -
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Old 12-18-2015, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
The flow sensor is intended to be installed such that all the water flows through it and can be anywhere in the flow path before or after the block and bypass plumbing. Placing it in a branch Tee will not allow water to flow through resulting in unreliable operation. It is not a pressure switch.

The MMI flow switch is designed to be compatible with the standard Cole-Hersee basic alarm system, also available from MMI.
Here we see the flow sensor successfully installed in the "branch Tee", specifically in the overboard branch of the raw water discharge which does not go thru the water lock and exhaust hose. This water actuated switch is quite sensitive but IMO it's cross sectional area is insufficient to carry the entire raw discharge on my boat. Notice from the pictures how it carries out it's function when the diverter sends water into the overboard branch. It will eventually be connected to a buzzer and possibly an idiot light. The second picture shows no water diverted to the overboard discharge: the switch is closed. The third picture shows the diverter valve bleeding raw water away from the exhaust branch: the switch is open and the good news of water flow is being declared.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:25 PM.
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