difficult starting engine

[Doug Marq]

Folks need your expertise. I am a novice with engines. We have had a c &c 27 mark III for two years. First season no issues, last summer I noticed the engine would always start up when we were leaving the dock, but after a few hours or more of sailing, the engine would not not start very easily, turns over but very difficult to start. Would like to buy whatever I need for upkeep from Moyer before this spring Any ideas? The only things that I have done regarding this engine so far with my limited know how is change the oil, spark plugs, I added a racon fuel filter, the water muffler started leaking ,corroded right thru so I made a new one. Purchased the flange from Moyer, that worked out well. I think I will add the anti siphon valve this spring too, one person at our marina said it could be water in the fuel and after sailing and heeling the water in the fuel might be causing this? I never did drain all the fuel out when we got the boat, maybe it is really old. Could be that I need to drain all of the fuel out Any other suggestions?
Thanks in advnace. Doug M sailing on Lake Winnebago Wisconsin

[romantic comedy]

The Atomic Four is a simple gas engine, and needs the same attention as any other gas engine.

When it does not start, you start with the basics:
does it have fuel?
spark?
compression?

The fuel is a very good place to start. Definately start with a clean tank with new gas. I am sure the guys will be happy to show you photos of the gas they drained out. New filters too.

Points, condenser, cap, rotor. All these should be at least checked. Since t he boat is new to you, I would replace them. Start fresh.

Hoses? how are they?
Alternator belt?
is it fresh water cooled?
Pump? check, and probably replace the impeller.

The carb? If you dont know its condition, I would rebuild it. It is very easy to do.

Starting fluid is a good diagnostic tool when an engine wont start. Spray a little in the carb, and crank. If it starts for a little bit, it was not getting gas.

They other guys will have a lot to say too. Probably more then you were expecting.

Welcome to the world of the Atomic Four. Pick up your membership card at the desk.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Doug Marq

...I added a racon fuel filter...one person said it could be water in the fuel and after sailing and heeling the water in the fuel might be causing this?

Does the engine run well after the hard starting episodes?

If the engine is running well when you stop it in order to sail, I would not think that starting again would pose a problem. Wouldn't contaminated fuel in the tank take a minute or two to reach the engine before showing up as a problem?

Hard starting after sailing may be coming from changes in the carburetor- perhaps a piece of crud being dislodged/lodged in a place where starting would be affected.

I think I would start by draining some fuel out of the bottom of your Racor filter in order to see what shape it is in. This filter is designed to trap water as well as particles so you may see that the filter has been overwhelmed if water in the tank is truly a problem.

Secondly, I would as Romantic Comedy suggests remove and clean the carburetor. As stated, this is an easy and important job. Do you have a secondary fuel filter in-line just before the carburetor? This too is important in assuring absolutely clean fuel being provided to the carburetor. These are available in our host's catalog.

After these points you might ask for some help in interpreting the build-up on your spark plugs, unless you are already versed in this dark art. Their appearance can tell you about the quality of the fuel burn and can help you in the necessary carburetor adjustments.

[Sony2000]

How do you do your restart?
Where is the throttle placed for the restart?
In your opinion, is the engine getting too much fuel, or too little, in these hot starts?

[edwardc]

When you crank to restart after sailing, does it crank easily, or is it laboring hard?

The reason I ask is that you mentioned that you don't have an anti-siphon valve. Depending on your exhaust configuration, and its lateral placement in the boat, it is possible to get water back into the cylinders when heeled. If it's only a little, it will produce hard starting after a sail.

Please post some pictures of your exhaust arrangement (we love pictures!). Be sure to show the height of your riser section relative to the manifold, and if possible its position relative to the boat's centerline. An indication of where on the engine the outside waterline is would also be helpful.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Doug
Please describe how you are using the choke for the "hot" starts. Even when fully warmed up a correctly running A4 will need momentary full choke to start. Your carburetor may be a tad rich leading to hard starts with full choke when warmed up. Try using a bit more or less choke for the "hot" starts and report back. It should give us some information as to what is going on.

TRUE GRIT

[lat 64]

Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON

Doug
Please describe how you are using the choke for the "hot" starts. Even when fully warmed up a correctly running A4 will need momentary full choke to start. Your carburetor may be a tad rich leading to hard starts with full choke when warmed up. Try using a bit more or less choke for the "hot" starts and report back. It should give us some information as to what is going on.

TRUE GRIT

+ 1 on this idea. That is, if the hard starting problem is consistent.
repeatable results from experiments are very telling.
Tell all.

Cheers,
Russ

[Mo]

Just a hunch...

I worked on a boat last summer that the guy "thought" started easy...in fact it wasn't an easy start at all. It turned over about 10 times before it started. We changed out his points / condenser and put electronic ignition in it, new plugs and wires, set the timing. Now it starts on about the 2nd or 3rd rotation...like it should.

Another thought: take a few pics of the exhaust riser and muffler for us. If some water was making it's way back into the engine while sailing the engine would be hard to start if the plugs got wet. An easy way to check that would be turn if over a couple of times without choke...you don't want it to start but you do want any water etc that go in there to be affected by compression and get up around the plugs...remove plug 4 and see if there is a droplet on the plug tip...if a droplet, thats water, if it just looks wet...gas, water on plugs is not your problem. I think it's worth a check.

[yeahjohn]

I had a similar issue. I think it comes down to start/restart sequence. My engine cold start requires full choke quarter throttle to start, and starts within seconds. My warm engine normally restarts no choke no throttle and starts immediately. If it does not turn over warm with no choke I then give half choke and start. I know most will say the a4 is hard to flood but I am pretty sure it is possible. Also turn raw water intake off while sailing just for safe measure.

[HalcyonS]

"I never did drain all the fuel out when we got the boat, maybe it is really old. Could be that I need to drain all of the fuel out"

if you sailed with that tank and fuel for a year with no problems then that is not the problem. The old fuel will have been used. The tank may have crud and/or water - checking the filter will ascertain that. Maybe some of the crud got into the carb, So to second various above - you should make sure you have clean fuel getting to the carb, so -

1. check gas filter, replace element if clogged (should do this annually)
2. add polishing filter before carb
3. check fuel pump (still) works (mechanical or electric? )
4. clean/rebuild carb
5. drain and clean fuel tank if that is easy (accessible drain bung? )

you should do all this anyway - that's what they keep telling me

[Doug Marq]

Thanks everyone for your insight. I guess I am going to learn more about the A4. Printed off all of your suggestions, and will work thru them. Quite sure I will have more questions! Doug

[Mo]

Get us a digital pics of your hot exhaust...the piece that comes off the manifold. It's a pipe that should extend upward, the small hose from the manifold should be on the aft downward section of it as it heads to muffler. A few pics of the whole exhaust hose would be good as well.

The guys pretty much hit on everything that might cause this issue but need to ensure no water is coming back while you are sailing the boat. If that is the case it will lead to further problems. I've seen a few C&C 27's with a ball valve installed to prevent water coming in from the exhaust, so it must have been a problem on some.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Originally Posted by yeahjohn

My warm engine normally restarts no choke no throttle and starts immediately. If it does not turn over warm with no choke I then give half choke and start. I know most will say the a4 is hard to flood but I am pretty sure it is possible.

If you can start a warm engine with no choke you are probably running a little on the rich side.
As far as flooding goes see FAQs general information #20 about 1/2 way down.

TRUE GRIT

[toddster]

Went through this with my engine last year. And yesterday... it did the same thing again. The starting characteristics after a spirited sail are definitely different than at the dock. Takes a lot of cranking and then it starts weakly. Fires on one or two cylinders for a few rounds. At the dock, a warm engine starts instantly.

There is no way that water backed in from the standpipe. I'm thinking it's got to be some sort of carburetor issue. Sure seems flooded to me.

Last year, there was a lot of gunk in the fuel filter and in the sediment bowl, but I cleaned all that out and put in a new racor filter. Less than 12 hr engine time since. Less than 2 hr on the new exhaust system.

I wonder if shutting off the fuel valve while sailing would have any effect? I'd rather not have to leave the cockpit to start the engine. Just in case I need it fast. Or something goes wrong with Otto.

(* "spirited" = "yeah, I should have reefed earlier.")

[Mo]

Toddster...sounds like water. Next time pull the plugs and look for the tell-tale droplets on plugs ...will likely be number 4 and possible 3 as well. Once the engine starts turning over it starts to expel the water out the exhaust...I would be willing to bet that there is a sheen on the water as well after the start. This happens because unburned gas is going out the exhaust as well as water from the wet combustion chamber /s ... until the water is forced out and the plug is permitted to burn the gas again. Again, it will start and run on 3 cylinders for a while and eventually 4 as water is driven from the chambers. If you can picture a piston part way down in the block water can be in there and have to be force out...also run your engine at the dock and check the oil...if it has bubbles on the dipstick and a greyish hue to it...water is getting in.

Pics of your exhaust set-up if you wouldn't mind. Once the engine has been running pump pressure keeps the water flowing normally out the stern....and it will expel all signs. Look at and think about your exhaust routing...riser, muffler etc...picture the boat healed and what their orientation is when that occurs.

Toddster...I forgot, what type of boat do you have?

[toddster]

Originally Posted by Mo

Toddster...sounds like water. Next time pull the plugs and look for the tell-tale droplets on plugs ...will likely be number 4 and possible 3 as well. Once the engine starts turning over it starts to expel the water out the exhaust...I would be willing to bet that there is a sheen on the water as well after the start. This happens because unburned gas is going out the exhaust as well as water from the wet combustion chamber /s ... until the water is forced out and the plug is permitted to burn the gas again. Again, it will start and run on 3 cylinders for a while and eventually 4 as water is driven from the chambers. If you can picture a piston part way down in the block water can be in there and have to be force out...also run your engine at the dock and check the oil...if it has bubbles on the dipstick and a greyish hue to it...water is getting in.

Pics of your exhaust set-up if you wouldn't mind. Once the engine has been running pump pressure keeps the water flowing normally out the stern....and it will expel all signs. Look at and think about your exhaust routing...riser, muffler etc...picture the boat healed and what their orientation is when that occurs.

Toddster...I forgot, what type of boat do you have?

It's an ericson 29. There's no real angle to photograph the exhaust system, due to bulkheads, but the hot section goes 8" back, 8" right, 8" up to a brand new Moyer standpipe that rises 24" above the water line. When the boat is heeled over, the standpipe is still about 24" above the water line, although tilted over about 45°. I think for any water trapped in the drain hose to run back down the inner pipe, it would have to get pretty much horizontal.

Oil still looks clean and new. Unfortunately, while this is happening, I am generally sailing up a narrow channel with powerboats zooming left and right and anchored randomly in the channel while fishing. So there isn't much chance to go below and pull a plug.

I suppose it would be a fairly simple experiment to install a full-port ball valve between the standpipe and the exhaust hose. But there's another thing to remember... Something like this maybe :http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/VIE...ll-Valve-1WNZ5

[Mo]

I have an idea. Next time you go out have someone shut off the raw water intake about 15 seconds before you shut down the engine. That would allow the pump and exhaust to drive water further down the exhaust system. When it comes time to re-start just turn open the raw water valve and go for it. If it starts right away you know it was exhaust water causing the problem..pics of your system would be helpful next time you are down around the boat.

Is that a fairly new hot exhaust on the boat?