Child hood dream?

[oceanwatersailor]

My first post here as you can see. To have a sailboat has been a dream of mine and hope I can pass it on to my children.

I have not ever worked on a marine engine before though I am always working on my own cars. I am happy that you all are here and this looks like a very helpful bunch so here goes.

I just recently purchased a 1969 Morgan 33 /w Atomic4 30HP Model 5101.
It is not local to me so these are all the pics I have for some time and not a quick drive to the yard (9hrs).


You can kick me later for this but I purchased this 1969 engine with out knowing if it runs by my own account. I was told it was winterized a year ago, ran before that and it is raw water cooled with an upgraded alternator.

Some questions I have and welcome any comments on this engine.
1. how do you test run this on land?
2. what is the best way to test the compression after it starts to see if it is even good?
3. What has been the run of the mill cost to get these engines back in shape or does it make sense to replace with something else?
4. Where is the DIY section if there is one? hoping...
5. what is the safe RPM to cruse at?
6. what is the best prop to have- best bang for the buck?


Funny thing is when I first looked at this engine I just said to myself I will just check the oil and then bump it over a few turns to see what she does.....I could not find the dipstick

[Mo]

Welcome aboard...we will do our best to help you out.

Doesn't look too bad. I'll relay a few things to you so you can avoid some problems.
-see if it will turn over on the batteries and check the compression with a compression guage. If the numbers are 90 or above on all you are OK. Just let us know what the numbers are and we will tell you the best course of action.....then...
-drain and replace fuel...if you can clean out the fuel tank.
-change fuel filters.
-remove and clean the carb out...not hard to do at all but you may need a gasket or two if someone put sealant on them...otherwise should be able to use the same ones.
-check and see if it has electronic ignition or points and condenser and if it has points and condenser put a new set in.
-new set of plugs.
-ensure you have a water source available to cool the engine when starting


Read up on all these areas and then get it ready and try starting it ..may need a few more things here and there but usually not too bad to get going. If this sounds overwhelming it's not...hardest part is getting rid of the old gas and cleaning the tank...really a must because you have no idea what is in it.

[JOHN COOKSON]

The best thing you could do "right now" is to get a copy of the Moyer A4 M&R (maintenance and repair) manuel available at the Moyer online store.
For the engine to start you will need compression, fuel, and spark.
Put up a post(s) if you need help or further explanation.

TRUE GRIT

PS: We're all DIYs in this forum.

[ILikeRust]

Originally Posted by oceanwatersailor

Some questions I have and welcome any comments on this engine.
1. how do you test run this on land?

You can plumb in a "T" fitting to the raw water intake and connect a garden hose to it, to provide cooling water. I have run mine that way on the hard for nearly an hour, with the exhaust water just falling out on the ground. I don't have a pic of my setup to show you.

Originally Posted by oceanwatersailor

2. what is the best way to test the compression after it starts to see if it is even good?

Compression tester, turn the engine over, see what she reads. Or, very simple method - remove one spark plug, hold your thumb over the hole, crank the engine and see if you can keep your thumb there or whether the pressure forces your thumb off.

Originally Posted by oceanwatersailor

3. What has been the run of the mill cost to get these engines back in shape or does it make sense to replace with something else?

First, I don't think there is an "average" cost to get one back into running condition - it really depends on what, if anything, is actually wrong with it. It might cost just a few hours of your time and a few dollars in simple parts; it might cost a couple hundred dollars in parts; or you might choose (or find that it needs) to completely overhaul it and spend a couple thousand.

Second, I am of the opinion that no, it doesn't make sense to replace it with something else. The "something else" would either be another Atomic 4, or otherwise a diesel engine. Either option would cost several thousand dollars, and with the diesel costing much more and being a more complicated conversion. I'm willing to bet you'll be able to get that engine running just fine for far less - again, unless there's something truly wrong with it (like a broken connecting rod or something drastic).

Originally Posted by oceanwatersailor

4. Where is the DIY section if there is one? hoping...

Pretty much the entire forum is the DIY section.

But definitely get yourself a copy of the Moyer Service and Overhaul manual, available here.

And check out Moyer's excellent tech tips and FAQs.

Originally Posted by oceanwatersailor

5. what is the safe RPM to cruse at?

In the neighborhood of 2000-2400. This will depend greatly on your prop.

Originally Posted by oceanwatersailor

6. what is the best prop to have- best bang for the buck?

Hoo boy! That's opening up a bucket o' worms... for a good primer, read Moyer's FAQ on prop selection.

Originally Posted by oceanwatersailor

I could not find the dipstick

Did you find it? I hope you have by now. Just on the off chance you're still hunting for it, it's behind the distributor, next to and a bit lower than the coil - it's kinda down low, behind the main block casting.

[lat 64]

Welcome!
I can't beat you up for not testing the engine before you bought it. I did the same as you.
Congrats on your new boat.

Hey what's that capacitor on the bulkhead? A homemade Tazer?

Russ

[mikeysail]

I was wondering the same thing. It looks like a big honking electrolytic.

[romantic comedy]

Have you sailed before?

Let me get this right, you want to leave a 1969 sailboat to your kids? Is it because they dont have enough things to do?

My advice is to get it going with minimal cost. Then see how you like the sailing thing. Sometimes it is just a fantasy that does not live up to expectations.

Good luck with the boat, welcome to the forum. Plenty of help here.

[lat 64]

Originally Posted by romantic comedy

Have you sailed before?

Let me get this right, you want to leave a 1969 sailboat to your kids? Is it because they dont have enough things to do?

My advice is to get it going with minimal cost. Then see how you like the sailing thing. Sometimes it is just a fantasy that does not live up to expectations.

Good luck with the boat, welcome to the forum. Plenty of help here.

I am completely onboard with a childhood fantasy realized!
Get the motor running, get that thing in the water and then spend a night aboard with a good book and a favorite beverage. when you wake up on a chilly morning in your own "yacht" you are king of the world. nothing compares. You go guy!

Russ

[Kelly]

I gave a "thumbs up" to Bill T.'s post as I think he answered your questions very well, and then some.

I would just add that the plumbing of a garden hose to the raw water intake in order to run the engine on the hard needs to be approached with caution. I'm not sure if Bill meant he would run this hose to a bucket that he would then keep filled with another hose or if he was connecting directly to a spigot and pressurized water. I did this and used the bucket technique as I was afraid to introduce too much pressure to the cooling circuits in the engine.

You can actually run the engine up to operating temperature just by feeding the raw water intake and the exhaust water to the same bucket. This creates a closed loop but will allow you to test the engine easily without worrying about keeping the bucket filled. Just be sure to stop the engine when you reach 170°-190°F. If not, you will quickly overheat.

[sailbristol]

Originally Posted by lat 64

Welcome!
I can't beat you up for not testing the engine before you bought it. I did the same as you.
Congrats on your new boat.

Hey what's that capacitor on the bulkhead? A homemade Tazer?

Russ

it stops alt voltage spikes for early loran

[ILikeRust]

Originally Posted by Kelly

I gave a "thumbs up" to Bill T.'s post as I think he answered your questions very well, and then some.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Kelly

I would just add that the plumbing of a garden hose to the raw water intake in order to run the engine on the hard needs to be approached with caution. I'm not sure if Bill meant he would run this hose to a bucket that he would then keep filled with another hose or if he was connecting directly to a spigot and pressurized water. I did this and used the bucket technique as I was afraid to introduce too much pressure to the cooling circuits in the engine.

I hooked the hose directly to the T. I installed a ball valve in between the hose and the T, so I could turn the water on at the spigot (100 feet away), with any flow or pressure inside the boat. Then I could open the valve and control the flow right there next to the engine, and when I was done, shut the water off and disconnect without having lots of water falling out all over the place.

I guess it just seems to me that you're not going to introduce so much pressure that you're going to hurt anything in the cooling system. It seems to me it should be able to hold in the few PSI that are imposed by a garden hose. I did this several times with no problems at all. But of course, there definitely are several ways to do this - all that you need to do is deliver enough water to keep the engine generally cool enough for the relatively short period you'll be running it. You most certainly can just drop a short section of hose from the T into a bucket and let the raw water pump suck the water out of the bucket, while filling the bucket from the garden hose. That is exactly what I did when I first ran my engine on the test stand in my driveway after the rebuild.

It's all good!

[oceanwatersailor]

Hello All,

Dear A4 Owners,
You all are so wonderful and encouraging with your posts. I am glad that it does not sound to crazy of a dream! I will be making another trip up to VA and trying these suggestions. I have had very little sailing experience and so I will be trying to get myself in a local club on the lake here. I found a Moyer Marine manual on ebay that I might get to help me get educated on this engine.

I see now where the dipstick is to be so I can hopefully find it now. I am crossing my fingers on the compression.

I am also in the process of figuring if I am going to sail her down to Ga or use a shipping company to get her down here. It's about 495 nmi. Has anyone here made this passage before?

[sastanley]

OWS..yes...we have Paul & Trina who are presently on the way back up and are in Georgia...they started in Delaware and made it all the way to Key West FL!
Here is a link to their trip, being documented here on the Moyer forum. - http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6916

Hanley has also made the ICW trip from Martha's Vineyard to Florida many times.

Everyone's got you on a pretty good line here..I have a couple of observations for you from your pics...With a serial number on the engine flywheel of 200xxx, it is likely NOT the first engine in that boat. A casting date is stamped in the block just under the valve cover on the port side...we'll help you find it later...additionally the serial number of the block is also usually stamped in a flat area just under the oil fill..I'll go back & check your pics again to see if I can see it. edit - Yup..the good thing is it looks like the serial # on the block matches the flywheel cover..it is hard to read, but I can see a 200xxx on the flat area...so that is probably a early 1980's motor?

My other observation is that the alternator looks like a stock 35A Motorola to me, right down to the regulator hanging off the front of it...just painted...however, it is entirely possible someone rebuilt the internals.

BTW - I am the kid who's Dad left him his dream of a sailboat..well..he's kinda cheap, I did have to buy him lunch so he would hand over the title..he got tired of sailing, bought a land yacht and summers in NY and winters in FL now.

Have fun with the boat!

[TomG]

Originally Posted by oceanwatersailor

Hello All,

Dear A4 Owners,
You all are so wonderful and encouraging with your posts. I am glad that it does not sound to crazy of a dream! I will be making another trip up to VA and trying these suggestions. I have had very little sailing experience and so I will be trying to get myself in a local club on the lake here. I found a Moyer Marine manual on ebay that I might get to help me get educated on this engine.

I see now where the dipstick is to be so I can hopefully find it now. I am crossing my fingers on the compression.

I am also in the process of figuring if I am going to sail her down to Ga or use a shipping company to get her down here. It's about 495 nmi. Has anyone here made this passage before?

OWS,

Welcome to the forum. I am of the opinion that there isn't an A-4 related question than can't be answered on this forum. The wealth of knowledge here is only eclipsed by the camaraderie of the participants. You are in a good place. Depending on where you are in Virginia, you might be able to attract a forum regular to give you a quick tutorial on the A-4... fermented, malted barley and hops is pretty good bait.

Bill and others have answered most of your questions, but I'll a few more thoughts. This is a good checklist to follow when re-commissioning your engine. This is from Don himself, so it's good data:
Trouble-free Spring start up

Depending on who/how the engine was last put to bed, your restart could be simple or not. Marine engines that are layed-up can be afflicted with sticky/stuck valves and rings. A couple good squirts with Marvel Mystery Oil (I call it, "Nectar of the Gods") in each cylinder and preferably down each exhaust and intake port around the valve stems can really help loosen stuck rings and valves. Let it sit for a week if you can. The next thing I would check is fuel quality in the tank AND the carb. Caleb and I take turns posting pictures of what we found in our tanks after an extended time on the hard. I think it's my turn:


If the carb wasn't drained of fuel when it was winterized, you likely have a gelatinous mess in the fuel bowl. You can probably remove the carb fuel bowl drain plug and get an idea if you are going to have issues. The A-4 is a wonderful engine, but the updraft Zenith carb is quite finicky when it comes to fuel quality. I installed a high-quality Racor fuel/water seperator as the primary filter between the tank and the fuel pump. Then I use a secondary (some people call them "polishing filters") filter between the pump and the carb. This approach has saved me much aggravation from fuel quality issues. I can't stress enough the importance of clean fuel.

You might want to check or replace the water pump impeller. If it is old and brittle, it is not uncommon for a blade to break off and lodge somewhere in the innards of the beast. This is something to avoid!

Don't crank for more than ten seconds with water flowing through the exhaust. It can fill up the water lift and then flood the engine. This is also something to avoid.

Finally, I would check the disty cap and the advance mechanism. Sometimes moisture can cause problems there.

Looking at the pictures, the flywheel cover doesn't seem to jive with the '69 year model of the boat. You might have a newer A-4. If you can read the serial number stamped on the block, it's pretty easy to find the month and year the engine was cast.

As far as sailing the boat from VA to GA, there are many folks here who have done or are presently doing just that. I'm sure they will have some advice. My opinion is more philosophical - don't plan a long trip on a boat you don't know very well. If you have lots of time, and I mean you don't have any other commitments, it could be done. But for a novice sailor to move a big, unfamiliar boat that far would be a big deal. It's an older boat, things will break, you're a new skipper, so there's that learning curve, the weather will not cooperate, the tides will not cooperate, the skinny water through the ICW will grab you. Get to know your boat, get comfortable with what both you and the boat can do, then plan a long passage. Figure out how much it will cost to ship the boat versus what it will really cost to sail/motor (mostly motor) that far in terms of meals, fuel, transient fees, repairs, and lost time at work and you will probably come out way ahead on having it shipped.

Good luck and welcome. And ask all the questions you want. Everyone here wants to help!

Edit: According the serial number on the flywheel, your engine from the late '70s. Atomic 4 Serial Numbers

[tenders]

Originally Posted by TomG

OWS,
My opinion is more philosophical - don't plan a long trip on a boat you don't know very well. If you have lots of time, and I mean you don't have any other commitments, it could be done. But for a novice sailor to move a big, unfamiliar boat that far would be a big deal. It's an older boat, things will break, you're a new skipper, so there's that learning curve, the weather will not cooperate, the tides will not cooperate, the skinny water through the ICW will grab you. Get to know your boat, get comfortable with what both you and the boat can do, then plan a long passage. Figure out how much it will cost to ship the boat versus what it will really cost to sail/motor (mostly motor) that far in terms of meals, fuel, transient fees, repairs, and lost time at work and you will probably come out way ahead on having it shipped.

This is very sage advice. The cost of having to get towed off a sandbar and/or repairing damage from running aground, not to mention the PITA time to effect a repair and/or social capital spent in convincing other members of the family that a sailboat is still a good idea, may help tilt the scales towards a land transit.

That big capacitor should probably be taken out of the system; it's an unnecessary complication these days and might even be a detriment if the capacitor starts to fail. As mentioned, it was put there to filter ignition noise which interfered with LORAN navigation devices in the same way that ignition noises sometimes interfere with AM radio reception.

[Marian Claire]

"As far as sailing the boat from VA to GA, there are many folks here who have done or are presently doing just that. I'm sure they will have some advice. My opinion is more philosophical - don't plan a long trip on a boat you don't know very well. If you have lots of time, and I mean you don't have any other commitments, it could be done. But for a novice sailor to move a big, unfamiliar boat that far would be a big deal. It's an older boat, things will break, you're a new skipper, so there's that learning curve, the weather will not cooperate, the tides will not cooperate, the skinny water through the ICW will grab you. Get to know your boat, get comfortable with what both you and the boat can do, then plan a long passage."
I think this is very sound advice and what I did to prep for my first long trip. I was pushing 50 and had little experience on a boat any bigger than a sunfish. Two years, off and on, of learning the boat and obtaining skills. Baby steps, lots of baby steps. I tend to be on the cautious side but I have never regretted the process. Your time line and needs may be much shorter.
I have read/witnessed trips on "new to the owner" boats that have ranged from " Well we made it" to absolute failure and loss of life and all variations in-between.
There are other options also. Hire a captain to sail/motor you and your boat south. Set up a series of experienced sailors to accompany/assist you on the trip. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[roadnsky]

OWS-
Welcome. You've gotten lots of good advice and more will come.
Ask questions. No question is too simple nor do we consider any question as "dumb". We all started somewhere. Your questions help us help you.
Again, the whole forum is DIY

Your Serial number is also stamped just under and to the left of the Oil Fill tube and I can just make it out in your pic.
Your number is only 90 below my serial number and my date stamp is 04/26/77

Attached is a pic of the Oil Fill. It's on the aft side by the Water Pump.

One other great tool that our host (MMI) has supplied us is the PANORAMIC view of the entire A4 engine.
AND it's the same model (LATE) as yours. You can pan around and zoom in.
Check it out and it will help you to identify various parts on the engine.
http://www.moyermarine.com/360/index.html

Take lots of pics of your own engine and compare to the one on the site and you'll soon be oriented.

Again welcome to the dream!

[Mo]

Does your boat have a cradle, trailer, or stands? Mine didn't but I built a trailer specifically for the boat while I was awaiting her arrival....for the story.

In 2007 I bought my current boat, Odyssey a C&C 30, in Cotuit Mass. The boat was supposed to be ready to go Memorial Day Weekend of that year and be sailed to Nova Scotia. Myself, and 3 experienced sailor friends, drove to Mass and were prepared to sail her to Nova Scotia. Upon arrival the boat was not in the shape that I'd believed her to be in, certainly not good enough for me to risk the lives of friends on, so I made arrangements to have her shipped by truck back to Canada. It was the perhaps the best decision I've ever made.

Had I not made the call we would have been dealing with one issue after another. First, the engine required extensive work with a top end overhaul, new starter, new alternator, fuel tank cleaned out, carb cleaned, new filters, new ignition components. That alone took me a week at home with all the tools available here in my garage. Would have been much harder working from the back of a truck and scrounging for items like hose, fuel cans etc.

The boat was surveyed and passed... but the surveyor's standards were a hell of a lot lower than mine! There were issues with lighting, wiring, plumbing, mold, thru hulls, head etc etc. I got that boat shipped to the yacht club 3 miles from my home and it fit perfect in my trailer. I found, even there at the club, I couldn't get anything done...every time I needed something I had to drive home and get it. After only 1 day of that I towed it home in my driveway where I had access to my garage, air, tools, water...everything I needed. Then it took 8 weeks to refit her...working 8-10 hrs a day, weekends included. When it was done I knew what I had...everything was as good as new, rebuilt, or new.

My point is that you never know the condition of things until you take it down and have a look. Old boats are a joy to work on when you have them in an area where you can complete the work without much hassle. This little post is not meant to deter you for I really enjoyed doing it and have enjoyed the boat since. My advice would be to ship it to a place where you can easily work on it. In my humble opinion home is the best spot to work on it if there's allot to be done. There is nothing like being able to walk out the door and go at it

I just left a message with friend from "seamasters", a boat sales and repair outfit. They use a company out of Maine to haul boats from as far South as Fl and NC to Nova Scotia....apparently have the best prices. Will try and get you a contact number....come back to this post later and I will have something added.

EDIT: OK here it is: http://www.oharacorporation.com/boat-transport.html
These guys do good work and great prices. I know of a few happy customers. They typically will fit in a job like yours on the way to another one. If I'd know about these guys when I had mine shipped I could have saved $1000.

[romantic comedy]

TomG,

I think that someone put salad dressing in your tank.

[TomG]

Originally Posted by romantic comedy

TomG,

I think that someone put salad dressing in your tank.

RC,

Quite possibly.

I called it my first "Black and Tan" aboard Patina. The subsequent ones have been far more enjoyable.

[Whippet]

Originally Posted by oceanwatersailor

Hello All,

I have had very little sailing experience and so I will be trying to get myself in a local club on the lake here.

Hi
i was in your shoes not so many years ago and had the itch. First step i took was sorting out the sailing bit. I took ASA 101 and 103 - long weekend sailing classes from certified sailing schools (see list of one near you on ASA.com). These are done on full-size keel boats - not on little dry sailers. I would recommend class to learn lots of basic moves (and safety) while an instructor is there to lend a hand e.g. tell you -- "and that, my friend, was an accidental jibe."

go forth boldly!

[tenders]

Originally Posted by Mo

I found, even there at the club, I couldn't get anything done...every time I needed something I had to drive home and get it. After only 1 day of that I towed it home in my driveway where I had access to my garage, air, tools, water...everything I needed.

My solution to this problem was to amass hundreds of pounds of boat-only tools over many years, and keep them in the boat and in the yacht club locker.

Your solution is better, but I think your driveway is bigger.

[ndutton]

OWS,

A trip from VA to GA is no small jaunt (~500 NM?). I'd like to think I'm pretty experienced and there's no way I'd try it in a new-to-me boat of unknown condition and maintenance history. I'd be calling the truck.

One more thing, you don't want your first entry into your childhood dream to become a negative experience.

[oceanwatersailor]

Wow you all are great with much wisdom on this topic!

I have no trailer and just got a quote of $1,500 to bring her down to GA over land.

So it looks like from all the information you all provided that it is much newer than I thought (1977-79)! I was hoping to find an hour meter on it but have not. Do they not come with a hour meter?

Here are some more pictures of engine but I guess should have gotten some from the back side (seems a tight spot). Got a pic of the charger and battery as well.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by tenders

My solution to this problem was to amass hundreds of pounds of boat-only tools over many years, and keep them in the boat and in the yacht club locker.

Your solution is better, but I think your driveway is bigger.

Well, now since the boat has been in the water there's a pile of tools on it year round. Full socket set, wrenches, adjustable wrenches, vice grips, pipe wrenches, screw drivers, allen keys, assort pliers /cutters etc, electrical testing and repair gear. Then of course some gasket material, silicone gasket maker, locktight, 3m 5200 and 4200...it doesn't take long to pile up...two tool boxes and one socket set. It's actually quite a bit of gear to be hauling around but the bottom line is that we have to have it.

For the minor technical difficulties I've had, I've been able to work through them with that. LOL