Dry or wet bilge?

[edwardc]

Ok guys,
I hadn't pumped out the boat in 24 hrs and the same amount came in...it comes about a 1/4 inch from the top of my bilge pump but that's as far as it rises. ...

To me, this suggests some sort of a back-siphon, but I'm at a loss to explain it.

Another possibility just occured to me. Could there be a slow leak in the raw water part of your cooling system? This would only transfer a limited amount of water into the bilge and stop when the section with the leak was empty, just the sort of thing you're seeing.

[ndutton]

No Russ, as manufactured the Catalina 30 has eight 3/4" anchor bolts cast into the lead. For those of us with older boats there are two issues with the keel attachment system that some of us are resolving with supplemental stainless lag bolts:

• There's a plywood shoe inside the bilge fiberglass that turns to mush and compresses if it gets wet - and it seems they all do sooner or later. This results in the notorious "Catalina Smile", a crack in the hull to keel joint usually found at the forward end of the keel, sometimes extending farther aft.
• Steel bolts in the early boats- mine, Shawn's and Thatch's included - may be deteriorated due to this water incursion. Any problem is in an area that cannot be inspected so we rely the progression of the crack and signs of water weeping into the bilge from the area of the keel bolts as indicators of condition.

I've come up with a supplemental keel support system that involves 3/4 x 10" stainless lags and custom stainless castings to eliminate reliance the original plywood and steel bolts without going through the arduous task of removing them. My structural engineering has been double checked by a professional so I'm good to go. Installation is planned at the next scheduled haulout.

[Mo]

Edward,
I'll have a good look around when I get back to the boat again later this evening. I checked the tru-hulls under the cockpit. All seem dry and it's dry under the engine....but I will check it all again. I will also have a look at the head plumbing and other tru-hulls. Whatever it is it's small. It not like I can see the water rise after pumping...it's seeping in.

[hanleyclifford]

Can this be?

If I understand Neil's comments correctly, it seems that the Catalina has, in effect, a plywood keelplank thru which the ballast keel is bolted with steel, that is ferrous, J-bolts (not stainless). Is that right?

[hanleyclifford]

Ancient Wisdom

I remember hearing that the ancients would throw rock salt into the bilge to keep it "sweet" and keep the fresh water rot down.
I'm not suggesting this should be done on modern wood boats; only as a item of interest.

TRUE GRIT

The practice continues to our day and is well regarded. I have done it myself, but a good salt water flush is far superior. The rock salt is mainly left in the bilge of wooden boats being stored in case rain water gets in. Of course for a fibreglass boat with mixed metals in the bilge salt water is destructive.

[ndutton]

If I understand Neil's comments correctly, it seems that the Catalina has, in effect, a plywood keelplank thru which the ballast keel is bolted with steel, that is ferrous, J-bolts (not stainless). Is that right?

That is essentially correct on the earlier boats. Catalina did away with the plywood shoe and went to stainless anchor bolts in later model years. The hull and keel joint is something to be watched but in my case the joint is 35 years old and has been in the water 100% of that time. I have only the smallest "smile" and zero seeping from the keel bolts. Still though, I'm installing a remedial system. Any change in the indicators mentioned in the earlier post and my installation schedule will be accelerated.

About the plywood, there is a keel stump forming the bilge that's part of the hull molding. The fiberglass in that area is the heaviest of anywhere in the boat. The intent of the plywood was to spread the bolt forces over a larger area than only that grasped by the flat washers. Also, the keel isn't solely supported by the bolts. There is a special epoxy-based adhesive that bonds the top of the external keel to the underside of the bilge. At Columbia the adhesive was Epi-bond, unbelievable stuff. Unless that bond is completely broken, it still takes days of work to remove a keel even after the keel bolts hex nuts are removed.

The adhesive is common on many other boats besides Catalinas. There was a Columbia 34 at the plant that had a standard keel attached instead of a shoal draft as specified on the sales order. We undid the bolts, lifted the hull in the Travelift slings, jostled the hull up and down, wiggled, hammered, chiseled, pried and cursed for three days before the keel came off.

[lat 64]

Ah!
Niel, I got that idea from the Catalina Direct Co. because they sell lag bolts for a solution. I thought it was just a replacement set of bolts.

Let me get this straight, The Catalina keel joint goo was an epoxy-based sealer that is now sometimes failing to make the "smile"?
And, the Columbia goo was Epibond that has stuck well over the years?
Or did they both used the same goo?

I thought maybe my Columbia goo was 3M 5200 or some kind of polysulfide. I Googled around and found Furane Epibond 150 A/B. No evidence what it was, but I guess Furane goos of all sorts were and are used to hold big jet airplanes together.

I really REALLY appreciate knowing all I can about the way my old boat was made. Thanks for the input. Wish I could buy you a few bears and talk old boats for a few hours.

I was delighted to find dry mahogany(luan?) in the core of my keel stub when I drilled for a few sister bolts as described in that Boat Design forum link.
Guess we should let topic drift back

cheers,
Russ

[ndutton]

I'd say we're still on topic. External keel fastening systems have quite a bit to do with wet or dry bilges.

And look, anytime you want to chat about Columbia you can start a thread, PM or email me. Anytime. Remember talking about H metal??

Your research that turned up Furane Epibond 150 A/B sure sounds familiar, especially the 150 A/B part. It was a miserable material to work with but oh boy, did it ever do the job.

edit:
Regarding the Catalina smile, there's speculation over what causes it but I think it is a combination of factors: wet plywood that has compressed, due to the sweep of the keel there's a portion at the front ahead of the first bolt (exactly where the crack occurs) and improper blocking during haulout. Combine all three and you have a perfect cocktail of contributors.

I've seen externally ballasted boats of various brands with the telltale crack. I think it's called the 'Catalina' smile because of all boats that have it, most of them are Catalinas. Factor in that there are around 7 - 8X the number of Catalina 30's built compared to any other boat of its size and if you add in the Catalina 27 fleet, the numbers get heavily skewed toward Catalina.

[KeysCatalina]

Wet due to AC

Always wet with fresh water.
I have my 8000 btu evaporative AC unit running on shore power 24/7 to combat mold and to keep the boat at 72* so when I arrive I can get out of the heat immediately. It generates a couple gallons of fresh water per day. I have that water drain hose plumbed into the bilge at the moment and the bilge pump comes on automatically every hour and purges it. Been going like that for almost a year now. The batteries each have a 2amp tender now but before that I could get about 3 months between charges with the bilge pump coming on frequently for the AC.
k

[sastanley]

Hanley, As Neil already mentioned, yes..that is exactly how they are built..Up until 1979, they had steel J-bolts, mine and Neil's are among those as 1977 boats. The plywood was still installed until the late 1980's I think..maybe as late as 1987-1988?

Catalina's official fix is to grind out the the top layer of glass, remove all the plywood and then re-glass the bilge, extending the glass up and around the turn of the bilges.

I have no water intrusion yet related to my steel bolts, although the boat had a pretty good smile. I fixed that the first winter, by cleaning out any and all debris and exposing fresh material, jamming 5200 in the crack and filling and fairing over top of that. I also sistered in six lag bolts (but not buying the terribly overpriced Catalina Direct kit that Russ mentioned.) The drilling for the lag bolts revealed moist plywood, but not completely saturated, yet...

Apparently, if you can cut off the old nuts, the stud itself is usually in great shape underneath, and you can usually chase the exposed threads with a die & install stainless nuts & or a backing plate(s), etc..That is my long term plan, although an off-line discussion with Neil over a year ago provides me with good confidence that the lag bolts coupled with the original J-bolts are stong enough that I can worry about other more significant things for now. I do plan to tackle it some day.

All that being said, I like to keep my bilge dry. Some rain water makes it in, but just a few ounces..the bigger issue is the ice-box drain, blech, blech, blech! I need to plumb a cheap pump into the sink drain to fix that!

[hanleyclifford]

Shawn - This is a little out of my comfort zone since I have never done a Catalina 30 but my first impression is that I would attempt to fashion some sort of "keelplank" to replace the plywood mush, using something hard and nasty like purpleheart or angelique. Then put backing plates and washers on top of that; but I would not put stainless nuts or anything stainless on top of those iron j-bolts. But "sistering" stainless hangar bolts with all stainless hardware is a great idea. I don't inderstand why they didn't just run long (stainless) keelbolts right thru to the bottom to be held with nuts and washers, and then plugged. Stainless and lead are comfortable together, from a galvanic point of view, but iron and lead in salt water is a disaster waiting to happen.

[KeysCatalina]

WOW glad I read this thread thru now, i thought it was about drawing rain water from the beginning.
This is something I will have to look into soon as I am planning to have a bottom job done in a couple months. I also don't understand the pricing from catalina direct for the bolts???

$279 for lead keel retrofit kit:
Special 8" long, 1/2" diameter lag bolts are passivated type 316 stainless steel for longer life. Includes extra long 18" drill bit. Since there is not adequate space to work inside the bilge, the long bit can reach into the bilge so you can work above the cabin sole.

$289 for cast iron keel retrofit kit:
Includes extra long 18" drill bit and an extended length, reduced shank tap. A long, ratcheting tap handle is also included. These long tools can reach into the bilge so your drill can be above the cabin sole. A 36" piece of type 316 stainless steel threaded rod is included. After drilling and tapping the holes, the rod is cut to length...

Im inclined to source these items separately (to estimate blindly) at less than $100 for all parts, at least they list the sizes and tools lol. Then provide them to the boatyard when they pull the boat to refinish the bottom.

[lat 64]

Keys,
This fellow gave me some good tips on my keel bolts vis-a-vie the other forum. Seems like a good sort. You could buy him a beer for me


Paul "PAR" Riccelli
Company: Riccelli Yacht Design & Restoration
Phone: 352-357-1248
34539 Marshall Road
Eustis FL, USA 32736


Rus

[KeysCatalina]

Keys,
This fellow gave me some good tips on my keel bolts vis-a-vie the other forum. Seems like a good sort. You could buy him a beer for me


Paul "PAR" Riccelli
Company: Riccelli Yacht Design & Restoration
Phone: 352-357-1248
34539 Marshall Road
Eustis FL, USA 32736


Rus

Hes over 7 hours north of me so definitely cant buy him a beer for you unless hes down this way.
I will give him a call anyway.
Thanks for the lead!
kris

[hanleyclifford]

Terminology?

When I hear discussion of "lag bolts" being used in lead ballast keels I am going to hope and "assume" you are really talking about "hangar bolts". Hangar bolts have wood screw type threads on one end and machine threads on top to receive a nut. Lags have a hex or square head that means the torque is developed by turning threads into the lead ballast. The hangar bolt develops torque by means of the nut after the other end is screwed into the lead.