Spring Start Up - Won't Start

[Tkenopic]

Hi there,
After going through the forums and the manual, I'm stumped.
I bought a C&C 30 last year. Had some problems with sticking valves. Removed and cleaned the tank, replaced the lines, removed and thoroughly cleaned the carb, added a Racor fuel filter, added MMO to the valves and everything ran great for the rest of the year. Winterized as per manual recommendations.

The boat is on the hard, getting ready for lift in this weekend. I have gone through the checklist in the manual, as well as going over the 'checklist for a troublefree spring start up' that Don posted. Here's where I'm at.

I have good compression on all 4 cylinders. There is raw fuel in the carb. I have checked the filter and the fuel is clean, no water. The oil level is good and clean. I cleaned the points in the distributor cap and they are corrosion-free. I have spark on all 4 plugs, BUT the spark is strong in plug 4, pretty strong in 3, a bit weaker in 2, and very weak in 1. Would this be enough to cause it not to start? Can anyone suggest a possible next step to try?

Also, I'm a bit confused about the "confirm the raw water through-hull closed". As the boat is on the hard, having the raw water through-hull closed seems irrelevant. I have a 5 gal bucket of water in the starboard locker and a hose to the intake side of the pump. As the engine is not starting, the hose is not in the bucket yet. Is this correct? Are we striving to essentially start the engine 'dry'?

Thank you!
Trevor

[ndutton]

Your symptom set as reported suggests your plug wires are due for replacement. That's not a guaranty, just going with the information provided.

[Dave Neptune]

Trevor yer right on the water.

The weaker spark could be how you are holding the wire or plug to ground OR possibly weak plug wires.

A no start if all was well last time means start at the beginning. The first thing I would check is that the choke is COMPLETELY closing and that the batteries are fully charged.

Does the engine turn over smoothly or sort of out of rhythm. If out of rhythm it could be a sticky valve again. A thumb style compression check should let you know.

Dave Neptune

[sastanley]

Trevor, I just helped resurrect an A4 that was dormant due to the owner being out of country..it sat for about 20 months and was properly winterized in August 2015.

We had NO spark..we believe the problem was the condenser, but we also replaced the points, and cap & rotor while we were at the parts store. We do plan to put each old piece back in to confirm..

However!! As Neil noted, while messing around with the distributor, we pulled off a plug wire connector & boot without much force, so he will be replacing those too We were able to temp re-crimp this for spring start up though.

Oh, and yes, you are spot on with the bucket/hose thinking..the water pump still spins when the starter is engaged and can fill up the water lift muffler which requires the engine running to evacuate. Stick the hose in the bucket once the engine is running.

[tenders]

Inconsistent spark could also be a failed coil, a misaligned distributor cap, or a dirty or cracked cap or rotor. When you say "cleaned points in the distributor cap," do you mean the points, as in the things that open and shut by the cams on the distributor and need to be gapped, or the copper contact points that the rotor grazes as it spins around? They all need to be pretty darn clean, obviously, and not worn down or misaligned.

If you recently bought the boat and can't know how old any of this stuff is, I'd replace every bit of it - plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and probably coil too. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to fix stuff that could be decades old and might not have been maintained well before the PO sold the boat. And I'd install electronic ignition the second you get it working. But maybe that's just me.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Fuel, spark, compression in the cylinders and a properly adjusted choke and correct timing.
You reported there is fuel in the carburetor. Is it making it up to the cylinders? Are the spark plugs wet with unburned fuel after a period of no start cranking? Also you can take a spark plug out and sniff what is in the cylinder. Raw unburned fuel has a very distinctive oder.
Do you or don't you have spark? Pull the big wire out of the center of the distributor and hold it near ground (the engine) while you crank the engine. A 3/4 to 1" blue-white arc is good. Once you can demonstrate a strong spark in this manner the problem is with the distributor cap, rotor, wiring or the spark plugs. The contacts inside the distributor cap towers can become corroded. The rubber boots on the distributor towers are not a perfect seal against moisture. You can clean them up by cutting the point off a pencil then wrapping the pencil with sandpaper. Also be sure the contacts on the ends of the spark plug wires are making good contact inside the distributor towers.
Finally do you have the spark plug wires in the correct firing order?

TRUE GRIT

[Tkenopic]

All excellent suggestions, thank you! And thanks for the clarification on the raw water valve.

It ended up being the gap between the points. Now being very new to this, I needed to find out exactly what that meant. I read through the ignition chapter in the Moyer Marine manual which helped a lot. I just wish there were more pics - I guess I'm a visual learner! I also found good answers here:

https://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2837

And though it's a different distributor, this video helped me understand I need a 'feeler guage':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R38skabxLo

Next, I'm going to try and figure out which distributor I have so that I know I have the gap set correctly. Will post a pic later.

Now that it's at least running for lift in, I can get it to my slip and then start replacing parts as suggested above. Thanks again!
Cheers,
Trevor

[capnward]

yes to electronic ignition

Glad you found the problem and fixed it. Feels good, doesn't it? With electronic ignition, also known as EI, worrying about point gaps and condenser will be a thing of the past. When I installed mine with a new coil in 2001, the spark immediately became stronger than ever. No adjustment since, but I have replaced the coil, probably unnecessarily. I get a new cap, rotor and plugs every year, to be pro-active. Probably overkill, but I put on over 100 hours a year. A-4s are a continuing education. With the help of this forum and the Moyer Co., you will be fine. Happy sailing!

[Tkenopic]

[IMG][/IMG]
Figured out that my distributor is a Delco. It's actually stamped on the plate, which I didn't see in the dark last night. I've circled it here in the photo in hopes of helping others. Also the .025" gap is the points that I've circled. I bought a feeler gauge and used it to set it, using the instructions in the video link I posted above. Hope that helps someone else!

[Al Schober]

Corrosion of distributor points over winter layup is not unusual. Poor or no spark in the Spring, you should immediately think 'points'. Just dragging a strip of 220 grit through the points a couple of times (reversing the grit) is usually enough to get things going again.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Corrosion of distributor points over winter layup is not unusual. Poor or no spark in the Spring, you should immediately think 'points'. Just dragging a strip of 220 grit through the points a couple of times (reversing the grit) is usually enough to get things going again.

Or use the proper tool - a points file. Available at your local auto pars store for two or three dollars.
IMO anyone that runs points should have a points file. I file all points before I install them. Cuts down on the "drama".

TRUE GRIT

[ndutton]

Please be advised, filing points in place affects dwell. A good Afourian resets the gap afterward.

[Dave Neptune]

Trevor, now that you have spark due to clean points don't trust the gap. Most of these old distributors have a worn out cam that opens and closes the points. This wear is why it is necessary to set the "dwell" to spec. As the can lobes wear it takes "LESS LIFT" to produce the same dwell so setting by gap will get things working OK but not to spec~IE to much dwell. This is the prime reason so many converted to the EI, just set it and forget it.

When you were working on the distributor did you check the centrifugal advance~very important for performance.

Dave Neptune