Stuck Crank Handle

[Cave_Dog]

Well it's been a while, due to work and what not. I left off trying to reset the timing on my Atomic 4.

I left the #1 spark plug out when I was away and have a stuck crank handle on the crankshaft. When I returned, the crank handle won't turn clockwise or counterclockwise except for a small (miniscule) amount. I bought a wrecking bar to pry the handle off but it STILL won't come off the crankshaft. I'm assuming it is because of a dented portion of the crankshaft at the very tip. In order to replace the steps I had to hammer the crank handle all the way down onto crank shaft and now cannot remove it.

What has caused my engine to stop rotating freely?
How bad is this?
Any suggestions on how I can remove the crank handle, possibly heat it up with a torch and then try prying?

Thanks in advance
Cave Dog

PS I will take pictures of the engine situation.

[67c&ccorv]

Well it's been a while, due to work and what not. I left off trying to reset the timing on my Atomic 4.

I left the #1 spark plug out when I was away and have a stuck crank handle on the crankshaft. When I returned, the crank handle won't turn clockwise or counterclockwise except for a small (miniscule) amount. I bought a wrecking bar to pry the handle off but it STILL won't come off the crankshaft. I'm assuming it is because of a dented portion of the crankshaft at the very tip. In order to replace the steps I had to hammer the crank handle all the way down onto crank shaft and now cannot remove it.

What has caused my engine to stop rotating freely?
How bad is this?
Any suggestions on how I can remove the crank handle, possibly heat it up with a torch and then try prying?

Thanks in advance
Cave Dog

PS I will take pictures of the engine situation.

1.) Pounding and prying on the crankshaft with a hammer and bar;

2.) Very bad.

Stop beating on your engine - it's not a dead horse...yet!

[ArtJ]

Is the crank handle up against something that would prevent the engine
turning? Please excuse if this is a obvious question.

There is a starting crank as well as a turning crank. I assume the
turning crank is the less robust of the two.

Maybe you can get a dremmel tool to cut or grind away the handle carefully
?

[hanleyclifford]

The critical error was leaving a spark plug out. Now you need to check to see if something fell in which could stop the piston from rising. Use a shop vac. Or it could just be moisture. Try the MM oil in the cylinder. This is one of those rare situations where violence does not work.

[Dave Neptune]

Ditch the Hammer

Cave Dog, the crank should slide off and on easily!!!! You may have to fabricate a pusher or puller of some sort to remove. You could try penetrating oil and gently tapping the handle UP&DOWN to work it loose. the handle has nothing to do with the engine being stuck.
The engine is probably stuck due to moisture in the cylinder allowing the rings to rust to the block. Whenever I check my plugs or leave one out for a bit I spray a bit of WD-40 or a lube oil of some sort into the holes, this keeps that from happening. If either valve was open then the moisture could get into other cylinders that also had an open valve.

Remove the plugs and spray a bit it of oil in and replace the plugs. Now go to work getting the handle removed.

As I recall this motor was frozen already once, is this true? If so until it has run a bit to smoothe the bores and the rings they will be more suseptable to rusting back in place because of the roughness. This is also why I say don't worry about the compression numbers unless a valve is stuck as after you get it running for a couple of hours you can get a much more accuratae reading. Also getting it to run not necessarily on all cylinders may shake the offending valve loose.

Dave Nepptune

Dave Neptune

[Cave_Dog]

Thanks

Thanks for the responses guys! I'm trying like hell to get this thing working so I can get back on the water.
Keep you posted. No luck as of yet removing the handle, but I might just bite the bullet and cut it out with a dremel and REBUY the crank handle and look for the offending culprit on the crankshaft.

UPDATE:
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
I got the handle off!
Now how best to break the rust in the cylinders?

Cave Dog

[Dave Neptune]

Knock ing them loose

Since you don't have the head off mix up some ATF and a bit of acetone or lacquer thinner and dump a couple of teaspoons in each cylinder. Now have a few beers read a book or start removing the starter~~slowly!!!
Once you have the starter loose look for a crow bar or a really stout large screwdriver. With the pri-bar of availability CAREFULLY apply preassure against the teeth on the flywheel. Make sure of your "footing" so to speak with the crowbar so you don't slip and gouge the teeth of the flywheel. Go back and fourth CAREFULLY and if it doesn't budge wait a bit and try again. It is important to go a tiny bit each way and sort of worry it loose.
Once loose add a bit of MMO or ATF to the cylinders again and reinstal the starter. Spin the engine with a rag on top to catch the oil spray and do a series of cycles of oil and bolwing it out when spinning with the starter. Be sure the water and ignition are off.
Now it is time to run the oil out and do not add any more~~it is now time to try and start. I suggest you open the plugs up a bit say .040~.045 and richen the idle screw up a bit say a 1/4 turn in. Once it starts let it run for a few minutes before you return the idle screw back to your idle position. When it has run for a bit you can re-set the gap back to stock. When you leave the first time after getting it to start and run spray some WD-40 or someting similar into the cylinders and replace the plugs. This will keep it from sticking until it has a few hours of "run" time on the bores.

Dave Neptune

[Cave_Dog]

Happy thanksgiving!

Tried posting this earlier.

Following Dave's awesome advice, I loosened the cylinders. Instead of removing the starter (I figured I would screw something else up), I filed down the crankshaft until it accepted the crankhandle and then gently back and forth until the cylinders came free. I can now turn the crankshaft counterclockwise freely without any (much) resistance.

Thanks Dave, I couldn't have done it without your advice.
Now I'm going to focus on cleaning out the cylinders. From your advice it sounded like I need to use the starter (by jumping it directly) to spin the cylinders so they'll blow out the ATF/paint thinner and catch the stuff with a rag. Then once I get the timing set (I'm following the FAQ from MM) I'll run it for a couple of hours and hopefully all will be well.

To all who helped, you made my thanksgiving!
THANKS
Cave Dog

[67c&ccorv]

Caveman...I am terrified beyond the capacity for rational thought!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-sALU_hveA

[Dave Neptune]

Nice!!

Cave Dog, good to hear you went back to giving her a try!!!! As long as we go one "clear" step at a time all should be well. Soon you will be able to help yourself and others with one of these beasties. As we saw on another site the biggest problem with the A-4 is usually the previous owner! Enough said.

Be sure the water is turned off!!!!!!!!!!

Now it is time for some basics. I'm guessing that you are jumping the starter with the ignition off. You may be at this a bit as I was so it may be a good time to head to the store and get a momentary switch and hook it up to the starter. I mounted one when I was doing mine a long time ago and I kept it mounted and still use it from time to time, it is permanantly mounted in my engine box. This will avoid you burning (arcing) the threaded posts but it is really no biggie. Spray some oil (WD-40 works well for this as it is really thin) in and repaet quite a few times the knocking KRAP out of the cylinders. If you have a shop-vac of any kind get it on the boat too. Get a piece of hose tubing (poly tubing works best for this) or such that will fit in the spark plug holes and tape to one of the vac fittings and try to get some of the Krap out of the cylinders. If your vac is one that you can hook up to blow work them both ways. Rotate the engine by hand or crank to raise and lower the pistons whil cleaning~~takes a bit of time!

Now a few more steps~~ Have you turned the distributor while trying to get it to run? Hopefully not!
Do you understand how the firing order works?
Do you have an electronic ign or a point type? Have you ever done points?
How good of access do you have to the dist area and the carb area of the engine? If we need to we may pull the dist to work on it as it will be easier BUT DON"T PULL IT until we have a way to put it back in the same orientation!!! It's easy one step at a time Patience patience.

Do you have a couple of extra spark plugs that were WORKING?
Did you try tweeking the carb idle adjusting screw at all?
Did the engine run before this happened and how was it running OK or really bad? Another words what happened to start you on this path ie was someting amiss?

Nicely done
Dave Neptune

[Cave_Dog]

Now a few more steps~~ Have you turned the distributor while trying to get it to run? NOPE, haven't
Do you understand how the firing order works? 1-2-4-3
Do you have an electronic ign or a point type? Have you ever done points? I have the Ignitor (electronic ignition module w/ red+black wire)
How good of access do you have to the dist area and the carb area of the engine? I have to hop in the cockpit bench to get to the distributor but I'm a small guy so its no big deal. The carb I can work on from the inside. I've completely taken apart the carb and cleaned it multiple times and rebuilt, replaced the gasket, etc.
If we need to we may pull the dist to work on it as it will be easier BUT DON"T PULL IT until we have a way to put it back in the same orientation!!! It's easy one step at a time Patience patience.

Do you have a couple of extra spark plugs that were WORKING? I can get a couple of extra spark plugs at AutoZone if I need them.
Did you try tweeking the carb idle adjusting screw at all? Yes, it didn't seem to affect the problem.

Did the engine run before this happened and how was it running OK or really bad? Another words what happened to start you on this path ie was someting amiss?

The engine was running terribly since I bought the boat. I've replaced the electronic ignition, the coil, taken huge crud out of the thermostat well, cleaned and rebuilt the carb. After all that I got it to stop STEAMING so much and to spark, but it still doesn't run smoothly, hence I'm on resetting the timing (w/o points).
Nicely done
Dave Neptune

Thanks for all the help DAVE! I'm going to grab an extra stretch of wire and start jumping the starter to get this crud out. I don't have a vac pump but I have a hand pump I use for oil changes that might get some of the crap out?

Cave Dog

[Cave_Dog]

Update:

I tried pumping some of the crud out of the cylinders with a hand pump to no avail. So, I jumped the starter with a #8 wire with a rag over the cylinders. I did this maybe 10-15 times for 20 seconds a piece. It didn't create as much of a mess as I had thought, but I could smell the paint thinner.

How do I know when the cylinders are sufficiently clean to start resetting the timing?

Cave Dog

UPDATE:
I am resetting the timing, but as I turn the crankshaft counterclockwise, I feel NO compression or push on my finger on the #1 spark plug hole. Since the timing was off in the first place, I can't use the positioning of the rotor to locate TDC? What should I do?

UPDATE2:
I also notice that if I put in the rest of the spark plugs and hold my thumb over the #1 spark plug and turn the crank, I can hear an audible bubbling. I'm assuming this is from compression as the liquid (WD40 = petrolleum distillates) is being compressed into a smaller space (basic chemistry, PV=nRT). Can I assume from the bubbling that this is the beginning of the upstroke in the #1 cylinder and adjust the pin from there to vertical to reach TDC? And also assume that I still need to clean out the cylinders a bit more?

[jhwelch]

Recently I had to adjust my timing. I shined a small bright LED penlight into the #1 spark plug hole and by putting my head to the right almost on the block I was barely able to see a tiny sliver of the piston rise up in the cylinder as I turned the hand crank. Can you see the roll pin on the crankshaft at the front of your engine? That should help you determine if you are on the compression stroke -- it should be vertical.

One thing I found out is that the engine will run even if the timing is widely off.

-Jonathan

[Dave Neptune]

Progress

Cave Dog, now that you have rotation we can begin the sarting process. At the present time we should assume the distributor is close if yo have not moved it. When the crankpin is verticle #1 can be on the compression or the exhaust stroke. We can determine this by the valves in #1 or #3 cyl. with the plugs out you should be able to ee the edges of the valves and with the pin verticle. Look in which ever cyl is easier with a mirror if necessary to determine if the valves are closed (the compression stroke) or open the exhaust stroke. We can also assume the dist. is right and with the cap off and the rotor pointing to the lug on the wire to the #1 cyl. Make sure you have the wires in the correct order and going to the correct plugs.
Now to the carb, close the idle adjusting screw on the top of the carb against its fully closed position and open 1 ~1 1/4 (on the rich side) turns this will be close enough to get her lit. Also be sure the choke is functioning by looking down the throat to see that is is closing completely. Once you are at this point you should be ready to start.
Make sure the battery is fully charged!!
Install the OLD plugs after cleaning them and opening the gap a bit to .040 ~.045". We will regap later this is for starting only.
Now make sure you have fuel to and in the carb, easy with the bail on the mech pump or you can hot wire the electric to be sure of the carb being primed.
Make sure the water vave is closed! Double check what you have done to be sure things are hooked up and in order.
If you did get a momentary switch use it to start her so you can be at the engine if possible. Now disconnect the coil wire, turn on the ignition and give the beastie a guick crank to confirm spark and reinstall.
It is now time to start the engine. With all of the troubles the engine has been through you may need a bit of MOTOR CRACK (starting fluid) to get her to catch ~~ not recommended except in cases like this or after dewatering an engine otherwise not recommended!!
When it starts it will belch smoke and run pretty rough for a bit~~normal after what it has been through~and after a short time of running open the water valve. If it dies and/or is not wanting to start then try the MOTOR CRACK sparingly ~ a one second blast to the flame screen is more than enough to get lit.
You're on your own now and if it doesn't start check the plugs and clean the oil off again and repeat the starting attempt.
If it doesn't start get back with some details.

Good luck!
Dave Neptune

[Cave_Dog]

More Progress:

Followed instructions per Mr. Neptune and ... here is the correction I made to the distributor, first is before, second is after:





BUT...

... no noise coming from the electric fuel pump.

Found faulty wiring at ignition switch and heard fuel pump begin to run, tried to start the engine. I only heard the starter running, but NO dug-diga-dug sound that normally accompanies ignition. Switched the key off and found fuel leaking from the flame arrestor to the carberator. Going to try to retighten it so there is no leaking and then check for spark.

Thanks all!
Cave Dog