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Old 06-17-2018, 08:31 AM
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A different view is it's another item to eliminate and like other tests, simple to accomplish.
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robs Hubris View Post
...Diagnostic implications?
If it's clicking then it has power and is likely working.
It makes a "louder" clicking when first turned on and then as fuel moves thru it the sound becomes muted or dampened.

As others have mentioned the real diagnostic tool is an inline pressure gauge.

Quote:
The external tank test seems a great idea; not sure how I pull it off...
• Get a gas can. 1 gallon will work but 5 gallon is better.
• Get 2-3 feet of ¼" fuel hose. (Same ID as connected to your carb)

• Disconnect your existing fuel hose from the carb.
Some gas will spill out here but elevate the end of the hose to stop the flow.
(you can also plug it with a bolt)

• Connect the ¼" hose to the carb and put the other end into the gas can.
• ELEVATE the gas can above the carb.

(on your C30 this should be easy)

Now start the engine. The gravity flow should supply enough fuel to overcome not having a fuel pump and keep the engine running.

Do this test and report back. It'll tell us a lot and we can drill down from there.

FWIW, I'm leaning to Neil's idea of the PU tube.
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Old 06-17-2018, 11:16 AM
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
A different view is it's another item to eliminate and like other tests, simple to accomplish.
Well, it's also wise to know one's limitations .. but thank you.

Mechanics are all booked out for 2 weeks or more and several refuse to work on Atomic 4's, or are reluctant to do so.

Therefore, I am MacGyver and I will continue to work on it with the very kind advice provided here,

Next up, gas tank test.


best,
rob
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Please try filling the tank to the top again and test. Based on this: I have a sneaky suspicion you have a hole in the pickup tube inside the tank. If it runs on a full tank that seals the deal.
Neil: I was rereading all the notes here and noticed that I skipped over your comment about the gas tank

The gas tank IS nearly full ... would that tend to decrease the likelihood of the pickup tube influence? It seems intuitive that it would.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:48 AM
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Yes, a full tank with symptoms persisting suggests the pickup tube is not the cause. The comment that the onset of symptoms was after multiple excursions led me to think of the tube.
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Old 06-18-2018, 12:57 PM
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IMO every possible cause is on the table until that part of the fuel system (tank, filters, fuel pump, carburetor) is shown not to be the cause of the shut downs.

Back to the tank for a moment: This is a bit far out but here goes anyway:
The engine starts and runs normal at low RPMs. As RPMs increase more fuel is needed which increases the suction at the end of the pick up tube in the tank, which pulls crud at the bottom of the tank up against the bottom of the pick up tube blocking it and the engine dies. After the engine dies there is no longer any suction at the end of the pick up tube and the crud drops off. The cycle is repeated.

TRUE GRIT

Edit: Is there a solenoid at the top of the tank pick up tube that might be acting weird?

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 06-18-2018 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:34 PM
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Have you checked all the fuel connections. If they are loose or too tight on the hoses, air can get in and cause stall out.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
IMO every possible cause is on the table until that part of the fuel system (tank, filters, fuel pump, carburetor) is shown not to be the cause of the shut downs.

Back to the tank for a moment: This is a bit far out but here goes anyway:
The engine starts and runs normal at low RPMs. As RPMs increase more fuel is needed which increases the suction at the end of the pick up tube in the tank, which pulls crud at the bottom of the tank up against the bottom of the pick up tube blocking it and the engine dies. After the engine dies there is no longer any suction at the end of the pick up tube and the crud drops off. The cycle is repeated.

TRUE GRIT

Edit: Is there a solenoid at the top of the tank pick up tube that might be acting weird?
Hmmmm ... so, perhaps if the recently filled batch of fuel was bad/crud laden ... anything is indeed possible at this point. I don't know about the selenoid. I'll take a look though.
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antibes View Post
Have you checked all the fuel connections. If they are loose or too tight on the hoses, air can get in and cause stall out.
I did cursory checks over the lines after trying the start routine a few times ... I didn't detect any hint of leaks. Which doesn't mean it's not possible ... but I'm pretty sure I would notice the smell of the gas, even in small quantities. I've never smelled a hint of gas leak or strong fumes in Hubris so they should stand out. Not off the table as a possible issue though ...
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:47 PM
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I had no fuel leaking out when air getting in caused shutdowns
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:53 PM
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Please review John’s post #22, auxiliary tank.
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Old 06-18-2018, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Please review John’s post #22, auxiliary tank.
And Jerry's #27 post on same ... yes indeed, I got it. Hope to put it into action tomorrow ... stupid work gets in the way of boating far too often!

thanks Neil.
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Last edited by Robs Hubris; 06-18-2018 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 06:33 PM
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I had no fuel leaking out when air getting in caused shutdowns
thank you. Can you describe the shut down pattern your experienced?
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Old 06-19-2018, 12:25 PM
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I was doing my end of the year run, 21 miles and the engine sputtered to a stop and would not restart until I got a tow in. It ran fine for a long time before dying out
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Old 06-19-2018, 04:49 PM
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Update ... bad news

A twist to the story ... prepared to run a separate gas tank line, ran the engine, died as before, but I noticed something funny about the sound of the engine. Checked the oil ... no oil at all. As I had just changed and refilled the oil this spring (and it rarely uses much through a whole season) I figured this was not good. Added oil, still had the problem, but I noticed oil in the exhaust.

Talked to a mechanic I found that works on Atomic 4's and he said he's "90% sure" that its the rings, meaning we'll have to pull the engine at a nearby marina (and I'll have to find a tow over there) and have it rebuilt.

Beyond the cost, there goes much of my sailing season ... argh.

thanks again for the advice and help. I feel pretty stupid for not spotting this sooner, but, live and learn.

best,
rob
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Old 06-19-2018, 05:06 PM
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That's an awful lot of oil to get past the rings!!!! Did a compression check get done?
The oil level will not cause the engine to run rough or die unless it is seizing or the crankcase is full of oil.

Just how much oil do you see in the exhaust? And can you supply a picture of the plugs.

I would think that for that much oil to "go away" that it is getting to the exhaust via another route and about the only way that will happen is something is cracked. Have you had a recent overheat or a freeze with water still in the block.

That much oil burning 9ff would leave one heck of a "Batman smoke screen" be hind you.

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Old 06-19-2018, 06:02 PM
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Rob, whenever you get this repaired or replaced I recommend the Early Warning and Diagnostic System (EWDS) from Moyer Marine. It monitors oil pressure and fuel pressure plus three other parameters on the fly and alerts you audibly and visually if any are out of range as well as which are out of range. It will really help in future troubleshooting.
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Old 06-19-2018, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
That's an awful lot of oil to get past the rings!!!! Did a compression check get done?
The oil level will not cause the engine to run rough or die unless it is seizing or the crankcase is full of oil.

Just how much oil do you see in the exhaust? And can you supply a picture of the plugs.

I would think that for that much oil to "go away" that it is getting to the exhaust via another route and about the only way that will happen is something is cracked. Have you had a recent overheat or a freeze with water still in the block.

That much oil burning 9ff would leave one heck of a "Batman smoke screen" be hind you.

Dave Neptune
Those are really good points... No I never saw that amount, or any, oil smoke coming out of the back... There is a very slow leak in the water exhaust system... Could that do it?
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robs Hubris View Post
There is a very slow leak in the water exhaust system... Could that do it?
NO.
Something isn't right here.
Can you do a compression test?

If you don't know how to do it, let us know.
It's an easy procedure that will tell us a lot.
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Old 06-19-2018, 11:15 PM
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Loosing the oil rapidly and having it show up in the exhaust is very odd. It suggests a breach between the pressurized oil gallery (high pressure) and a water jacket (low pressure). A block pressure test should verify or eliminate this theory. I wonder if Don has ever run across this situation?
Tom
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatch View Post
Loosing the oil rapidly and having it show up in the exhaust is very odd. It suggests a breach between the pressurized oil gallery (high pressure) and a water jacket (low pressure). A block pressure test should verify or eliminate this theory. I wonder if Don has ever run across this situation?
Tom
Terry the mechanic, who knows the engine well, refuses to diagnose it without looking at it first (a sane position) and he'll have it by this afternoon.

His starting view though is that 3 quarts of oil don't disappear ... if it's not in the bilge, it's going out through the engine system somehow; meaning, I think, that he still suspects the rings.

I'll know more after he looks at it and runs the compression test as suggested by Jerry.

I'm convinced that the problem and solution are both likely well beyond my skills/resources/time.

I anticipate a lot of cost, but I don't want to lose any more of the season than I already have and I have some confidence in this mechanic and team. They have rebuilt may of the A4's that we use in our MarkI C+C35 racing group here (Detroit) and are well vetted.

I'll post more as I learn more following Terry's (mechanic) diagnosis.

Thanks as always,
rob
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:23 AM
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Oil consumption

We have very little history of unusually high oil consumption being reported. In case it helps your perspective, I can report that before I rebuilt it, the Atomic 4 in our first sailboat (our beloved "Water Music") consumed a quart of oil every 6 hours, and there didn't seem to be any drastic effect on the plugs. Don
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:21 PM
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Hi Don, I guess my question for you is, do you ever recall seeing a case where the high pressure oil portion of the block found it's way into the water jacket area?
Tom
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Old 06-20-2018, 01:50 PM
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Oil consumption

Sorry Tom, I missed the main thrust of your question. As near as I can measure, the main pressurized oil galley is approximately 2" below and 1.25" displaced laterally from the nearest corner of the main water jacket in the block. So I don't think it's very likely that a rogue crack would reach from the oil galley to the water jacket. At least there's no history of such a crack that I know of. Don
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Old 06-20-2018, 02:51 PM
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Thanks Don, I know that you are intimately familiar with the internals of the block so I had to ask the question.
Tom
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